5 Phrases I Think Christians Shouldn’t Say
May 17, 2012
Sometimes I curse. I don’t pepper my language liberally with curse words like people might pepper a house salad, but sometimes I curse.
It surprises people to hear that pastors sometimes curse. But really, that’s all I can do sometimes. When you see terrible tragedy where you have absolutely no response other than sadness and despair, cursing happens…because you can do nothing else.
Likewise, sometimes when I see utter beauty a word will slip through my lips, brought from the very depths of my emotional being where words live only to be used in situations where no word seems appropriate. Usually that’s a curse, too.
Pastors sometimes curse. Christians sometimes curse.
And, really, I hear things slip from Christian mouths with reckless abandon that I believe are far worse than curse words. Here are just 5 (there are undoubtedly more):
5) “That’s not Christian…”
I’ve heard this a lot. I once told a person that I meditated. They responded, “Well, that’s not Christian you know…”
Sigh.
See, the problem with that line of thinking is that it narrows what can be identified with living a life in Christ. Rob Bell does a great job in his book Velvet Elvis on dissecting the danger in turning the word “Christian” from a noun (as it’s used in the Bible) into an adjective. In the noun form, a Christian is a follower of Christ. In the adjective form, it describes an action…presumably an action that a follower of Christ should/shouldn’t do, and therefore sets up categories that have definite barriers. And in doing so, it implies some judgment that is unwarranted at best and untrue at worst. Consider these phrases that I’ve actually heard:
“It’s not Christian to fire that person.” (Implication: A Christian can’t do some things because they’re seen as “mean”)
“It’s not Christian to think those sexual thoughts.” (Implication: A Christian isn’t sexual, or if they are, they don’t think about it because God hates sex and real Christians can control such things)
“You can’t do yoga! It’s not a Christian practice…” (Implication: A Christian can’t borrow from other faith traditions…or, apparently, stretch with intentional breathing on rubber mats)
“You can’t get a tattoo; it’s unchristian to defile the temple of God.” (Implication: God has an opinion about the tribal band around your ankle)
People say it all the time, and while a generous interpretation of their words might be to assume they are calling a specific action/thought into question, the reality is that they just end up calling the person doing that thought/action “unchristian”…to hurtful consequences. For those questioning or skeptical of faith, it erects another barrier, and further narrowly defines who is in or out of a relationship with God.
What if someone were to say, “It’s unchristian to make that amount of money”? Or, “It’s unchristian to have a house that large because you really don’t need that much space”?
We should ban “Christian” in the adjective form. We can’t use it with any consistency.
4) “I love the sinner but I hate the sin..”
Great.
See, the problem that I have with this phrase is that it assumes that “sin” is a specific action that is done/can be undone. If that’s the case, name the specific action that you hate.
“I love you, Tommy, but I don’t like it when you break my glasses.” “I love you, Sarah, but I don’t like it when you kick my shins.”
But really, I haven’t heard this phrase used in those ways. I’ve only heard it used when people are talking about identity.
“I love gay people, I just hate that they act on their homosexual orientation…”
There we go. There’s an honest statement.
And an unhelpful one.
It’s unhelpful because, you can’t love me apart from my sexuality. I really don’t think you can. It’s part of what makes me who I am, even if it’s not the whole of my definition. So, if you were to say to me, “I love you, but I hate that you’re heterosexual…” I would probably stop listening right then and there because, well, I wouldn’t believe you.
You can’t love me and yet hate an essential part of me. This phrase is disingenuous.
3) “You need to surround yourself with some good Christian people…“
I once had a well-meaning friend tell me this when I was trying to sort out a problem. I think they were suggesting that I seek faith-based advice. I understand that sentiment.
But one of the problems with this sort of thinking is that, well, when you live in a bubble all you breathe is soapy air, and you may begin to think that is all there is.
As a pastor, people want me to have office hours at church. But in all seriousness, I can’t all the time. If I don’t go to the coffee house a couple times a week, I suffocate in my bubble. I need diversity because it is only in diversity where my thoughts, beliefs, and ideas are challenged.
And really, if I only see Christians all the time, I’m a pretty crappy pastor.
It is narrow to believe that somehow surrounding yourself with only one worldview will help you see the world better.
And besides, sometimes Christians surrounded people and then burned them on stakes…
2) “You just have to do God’s will…”
I am utterly suspicious of people who claim to know the specific will of God.
I’m even more suspicious of people who claim that God’s greatest wish is to have us be in a relationship with God. I think this is where much “praise and worship” music get it’s singular focus.
In the abstract, I get what they’re saying. I think God does desire for humanity to live in shalom with it’s creator. But to claim that this will takes precedence over God’s desire to have humanity live in shalom with one another, and with the environment, and with other creation is, I think, short-sighted. Theology runs into a similar problem when it focuses so much on “Jesus, Jesus, Jesus” and fails to mention the other persons of the Trinity.
We run into real problems when we begin to think that with regard to specific situations (like, say, my future husband/wife) that God has one will.
I cannot see how that can be true. I love my wife. But do I think she’s the only person in the world I could have married? Do I think that I’m the only person in the world she could have married? No. I don’t. She’s bright, beautiful, and funny. There are lots of people who would have asked her to marry them (and still might…she’ll just have to say “no”). Likewise I’m beautiful and funny (jury is out on the “bright”), and could have found another partner.
I just found her and we decided to do this. (It was actually much more complicated than that…and a bit more romantic…)
I hope this gives some freedom to those in the world who believe that there is only one right job, one right spouse, one right school, one right anything that they must find or else they’re missing out on God’s will for their life.
And this leads me to the number one…
1) “It’s all in God’s plan…”
That you lost your baby. That your sister was murdered. That you got cancer. That your life is in shambles.
I really can’t think of a worse thing to say to someone, especially when they’re in pain.
We cannot use God to fill in the gaps between events and the people they effect. We want to give solace, to promise that there is a purpose behind madness, but if there is one thing that the cross shows us definitively, it’s that God takes the pain in the world and makes resurrection.
But we should not think that this means that God makes the world’s pain, or the specific pain in a person’s life. It’s an important distinction.
One of the reasons I left faith for a while was because I had heard too many times that God was flipping switches on people: causing children to die, cancer to spread, poverty to happen, etc.
Not only do I think that saying this to someone is adding hurt to hurt, I think it breaks the second commandment. When we say such things, we use God’s name in vain; we use it “uselessly” as the word is better translated.
So when you’re confronted with the news of your friend’s tragedy or a relative’s pain, stand in solidarity with them and scream, “Dammit!” I’m a reluctant Christian at times because I think that those who call themselves Christian don’t think enough about their words.
Frankly, I wish they’d just curse more.
May 17, 2012 at 9:49 pm
Ah…the yoga comment… I was just told that this week. Apparently I channel gods through it.
May 17, 2012 at 9:59 pm
I hope they’re benevolent.
May 18, 2012 at 4:15 pm
Wow, I thought there was just one but I guess other Christians may be polytheistic…
May 18, 2012 at 4:33 pm
So, that was a joke. I’m not polytheistic…and I don’t think Tara is, either. But its great to have all sorts reading! Thanks for stopping in, you have a really interesting blog as well.
May 19, 2012 at 2:52 am
Sorry, I was not actually implying that, mine was a benevolent sarcastic comment and it was meant as comment on the previous thing but I clicked the wrong “reply” as I fear I have done once again. (replying to Timothy below)
May 19, 2012 at 8:36 pm
“I am utterly suspicious of people who claim to know the specific will of God.”
I couldn’t agree with you more!
“I’m even more suspicious of people who claim that God’s greatest wish is to have us be in a relationship with God.”
WTF?!
May 23, 2012 at 7:55 pm
That’s a funny one cause my church actually has yoga classes. And occasionally, belly dancing, and classes discussing other religions, and various other things that “aren’t very christian”. That phrase is such crap.
May 23, 2012 at 8:05 pm
“No other gods before Me”, isn’t it? You can have as many as you want, provided they’re second
November 28, 2012 at 9:02 pm
I always say: Monotheism is like monogamy – other deities may or may not exist – you just can’t get busy with them. “No other gods before Me” is not a statement of reality- it is a statement of devotion.
May 17, 2012 at 10:42 pm
Comments I hear a lot of. I hope you’ve never been told that it wasn’t Christian of a clergywoman like ‘yourself’ to wear eyeliner and lipstick. Maybe I should have told them Wippell’s and Almy don’t carry the right colors and we need to go out of our way to Sephora…
May 17, 2012 at 11:11 pm
Ha. My eyeliner is from the Goth store in Uptown. Or should I say “guyliner”?
Anyway, that’s terrible, too. Perhaps for my next treatment of the subject…
May 24, 2012 at 12:08 am
I”ve got lots of material for you.
May 24, 2012 at 6:57 am
Ha!
May 18, 2012 at 7:17 am
Cursing is a struggle for me too. I bought Rabbi Daniel Lapin’s book – Perils of Profanity and frankly it has helped me and given me reason to find alternatives in my own vocabulary. I highly recommend it!
May 18, 2012 at 9:03 am
Thanks for the book recommendation!
…but I think cursing is necessary sometimes…
May 18, 2012 at 1:49 pm
You might change your mind if you read that book.
May 20, 2012 at 9:16 am
Cursing is a matter of the heart. Yes, there is still a difference in thinking it and speaking it, but to replace one ‘f’ word with another did not change the sentiment.
Also, I believe there is a difference between profanity and cursing. General profanity is usually viewed as ignorant and disrespectful. It should honestly been seen the same as a random fool uttering incohesive statements. Cursing should be reserved just as an exclamation point.
One thing that is commonly attached to both profanity and cursing is using (taking) God’s name in vain. Hopefully the book addressed this directly. This is a sin. Feel free to speak to God directly on a regular basis (as Paul mentions hundreds of times). Steer clear of randomly inserting God’s name (or any reference to) into your everyday talk.
May 23, 2012 at 6:56 pm
Wouldn’t taking God’s name in vain be attributing a vain act to God’s favoritism toward something. Like thanking god for winning the Superbowl or a Grammy or justifying war because God is on your side?
May 23, 2012 at 7:01 pm
So, this is one of the most misunderstood commandments in my view. As I point out, the commandment is best translate “Use God’s name uselessly.” So, KVD, you’re right. It’d also be attributing to God something that God had nothing to do with. Or perhaps making a billboard where you cite God…I mean, there are so many ways to use God’s name uselessly.
May 23, 2012 at 8:11 pm
Actually, Jesus explains the “don’t take God’s name in vain” thing. What it means is when you swear an oath in God’s name–and I don’t mean profanity, I mean saying something like “By God, I’ll quit smoking this year.” Taking God’s name in vain means swearing that you’ll quit smoking this year, and by the next New Year’s Eve party you’re up to a pack a day. Swearing an oath in his name and then breaking it.
I am not going to look up book, chapter, and verse but it’s in the passage where Jesus says, “But I say unto you, Swear not by heaven, for it is God’s throne; nor by the earth, for it is his footstool; nor by thine head, for thou canst not make one hair white or black.” Sorry for the KJV but it’s what I remember best.
Anyway. If you’re getting mad at people for saying “God damn it” but not mad at the people who say that by God they’re going to lose ten pounds and then they’re twice as fat in six months, your pique’s a bit misguided.
May 23, 2012 at 8:08 pm
Studies have shown that if you do not habitually swear, but let a good one go once in a while, it is a great stress-reliever. I think the main problem with profanity is not that people swear but that they overdo it. And I’m not one who finds a whole lot of problems with profanity. (I’m also an agnostic, so feel free to dismiss my opinion as you will.)
May 18, 2012 at 10:22 am
Cursing is quite necessary sometimes.
It is arresting, shocking, and rousts the hearers out of their complacency. Y’know, like…well, I dunno…braiding a whip out of leather cords and going berserk while cursing and overturning the commerce tables of moneygrubbers who exploit people?
May 18, 2012 at 10:26 am
Agreed! Thanks for sharing.
May 19, 2012 at 12:33 am
epic ^.^
May 18, 2012 at 12:53 pm
[...] tip to Episcopal Cafe for sharing a link to Reluctant Xtian's excellent post about "5 Phrases I Think Christians Shouldn't [...]
May 18, 2012 at 2:49 pm
What if someone were to say, “It’s unchristian to make that amount of money”? Or, “It’s unchristian to have a house that large because you really don’t need that much space”?
Well? Maybe the listener would reconsider how their life aligned with their professed beliefs?
May 22, 2012 at 4:14 am
But people *don’t* say that… they say it’s “unchristian” to care about the environment, or question wealth, or break gender norms, or admit to experirncing depression or anxiety.
May 23, 2012 at 8:15 pm
Although that’s changing. There are Christians involved in the Occupy movement, for example.
May 18, 2012 at 4:00 pm
On target. Thanks.
May 18, 2012 at 5:15 pm
A friend of mine pointed out that, although we use them as a synonym for ‘cussing’, there is a distinct difference between cursing, blaspheming, profanity, obscenity, and plain ol’ cussing. One can do all of the first four without a single cuss word.
We’re often told as Christians not to say certain words, particularly those that fall into one of the five above descriptions. However, I think that far too often, it’s the harmless, everyday words that we think are “helpful”, “challenging”, or “speaking the truth in love”* that (intentionally or not) cause the most pain.
*- i.e. “I’m going to throw tact and courtesy to the wind and say thoughtless, rude things under the mantle of ‘tough love’ and showing you that I care, therefore removing your right to take offense to anything I say.”
May 18, 2012 at 5:18 pm
Thanks for the distinction, Kari. There is some truth there. Thanks for reading and commenting!
May 18, 2012 at 5:49 pm
I don’t know about this. The arguments can quickly get too complicated when we try to say what we can say and what we can’t say. “Speak the truth in love” works for me, but it does not mean “Speak whatever is on your mind at all times and in all places and then hide behind loving intentions.” It means, “Love one another and speak the truth when it is helpful for the edification, correction or encouragement of the other.”
May 18, 2012 at 8:46 pm
Thanks, Douglas! Perhaps “speak truth in love” is a good mantra. It begs, though, what Pilate asked so succinctly in John, “What is truth?”
This week’s lectionary might have something to say about it.
May 18, 2012 at 6:29 pm
I like what Charles Schulz (Peanuts) said – Good Grief and Rats and the only 2 words you need (instead of swearing).
May 18, 2012 at 8:47 pm
Ha. He was a good Lutheran. My grandmother was also a good Lutheran. She preferred the word “Shit.”
May 18, 2012 at 6:49 pm
Thank you for this!
May 18, 2012 at 8:43 pm
Thank you for commenting! Blessings!
May 18, 2012 at 7:21 pm
Soory, he had me until the last comment. possibly he needs to go back and reread parts of the Bible that show clearly God *does* cause things like our daughter’s death or my friend’s cancer. Read Job. Read the story of Joseph. Read…. well, the Bible. Read it. Either God is God, ultimately in charge of all things, or He isn’t.
May 18, 2012 at 8:42 pm
Hi Beads, thanks for posting. I’ve read Scripture. The whole thing. A couple of times. I don’t subscribe to your interpretation. God does not have to kill everyone who dies in the world to be God.
I’m sorry for your loss and the illness of your friends. Many prayers for them, and thanks for commenting.
Hopefully we can all be careful about how we speak to people in light of the fact that not everyone can stomach the thought that God causes people to get cancer.
May 19, 2012 at 7:12 am
Thank you for your kind comments. But how then do you explain, among other Biblical passages, all the troubles Job had, including the death of all of his children, and Joseph’s trials, which both of them clearly say, with no room for interpretation, were *caused* by God? As Job says to his grieving wife in one verse, “Shall we then accept good from God and not accept adversity?” Just because someone can’t stomach something doesn’t mean it isn’t true…. I have a hard time stomaching the idea that a totally innocent Person was whipped and beaten, spat upon and reviled, and then nailed to a cross for stuff I did, so that I could be reconciled to God. Still true. Praise God, still true.
May 22, 2012 at 10:28 pm
could it be that God allows unfortunate things to happen and then uses those situations for HIS glory…when someones life is changed dueto death or misfortune,it gives the tragedy a meaning. Sometimes bad things do happen, I lost a daughter in a violent way. Her death was not without meaning because other, her peers and adults she interacted with used the situation to reevaluate their lives and actions. I don’t believe God killed her, I do believe that God made lemonade out of lemon though. Thats what people in those situations need to hear.
May 22, 2012 at 11:22 pm
Thanks for your comments, Margaret. I would say that, if God were to do that, it’d be pretty selfish on God’s part. That’s why I don’t think it’s true.
I do, however, agree with your idea that God makes good out of tragedy, but I wouldn’t say that God makes tragedy to make good.
Thanks for posting!
May 23, 2012 at 8:18 pm
I think that if there is a God, while you could make a good argument that He created the universe, you could also make a good argument that if He were to intervene in every single bad thing that ever happens, He’d violate His own laws of physics for this reality and probably rend the universe asunder.
Either you believe God’s capable of making the universe just perfect the way it is, or you believe God made a whole bunch of mistakes and keeps having to fix them.
And we really do not have the ability to take the long view and understand why these things happen. I think cancer happens, for example, because that’s just the way DNA works under certain circumstances. And we wouldn’t want to live in a universe where DNA *stopped* working. We’d cease to exist.
It sucks, but there it is.
May 23, 2012 at 8:43 pm
Hey Dana, thanks for your comments. I don’t agree with you, and I don’t think “that’s the way it is” necessarily, but thanks for commenting.
May 18, 2012 at 11:51 pm
God didn’t cause Job’s suffering, he allowed it to happen because he knew Job could handle the pressure and ultimately Job defeated Satan through the experience. So maybe God is allowing us chances to defeat Satan and we mistake it for God causing us despair.
May 19, 2012 at 9:32 am
So, I guess I should go ahead and say that I don’t take Job literally. It’s a story with a purpose. But I don’t think the purpose is to show that God allows suffering, nor to say that God plays games with us.
I know there are others who don’t share that view. Thanks for posting!
May 19, 2012 at 11:22 am
God is in control of the universe and all that happens in it. He did allow it to happen, the Word says so…. and yes, Job defeated Satan in the process. My point was, when someone is in charge to the degree God is, the difference between cause and allow is negligible, since nothing can touch us that doesn’t pass through God’s hands first. I find that reassuring…. even if I don’t like everything He allows/causes/lets happen to me.
May 19, 2012 at 2:43 pm
The Job story is fiction. Lets however look at it as if it really happen when you you read it all the pain that God allowed Job to experience by given satan the go ahead after he asked God for permission to harm( loving God?) was in order to do one thing. For God to win a bet. Christians are sick who believe this story to be anything more than immoral on God’s part since after all Job was flawless and made to suffer for it cause his “God” has a self esteem issue. You guys make me laugh. Please wake up you are more moral than the God you claim exists although you do suffer from the same low self esteem as the God that was created by humans.
May 19, 2012 at 2:48 pm
I’ll approve this comment because I’m an equal opportunity approver, but I while I do agree with this poster that the Job story is story, I do believe it holds Truth.
I don’t like that in Job God wagers a bet. But it’s a teaching story from a different era. It can still speak today.
By and large, though, I ask that people keep the dialogue respectful in here. I’m sorry that this poster feels that I, or anyone, suffers from low self-esteem because of my faith. If anything, my faith feeds my self-esteem because God has named me…and that’s pretty important.
Thanks for coming by, though, Jackson!
May 22, 2012 at 3:05 pm
It seems to me that part of the point of the story of Job is how bad his friends were at comforting him in his suffering, because they each presumed to speak for God.
And that is exactly what Pastor Tim was talking about.
January 13, 2013 at 12:01 pm
Caused it or allowed it, it still went through His hands on the way to Job. I’m ok with that, since He also gives us the grace to deal with the things He causes/allows. And Satan has already been defeated, he’s just lurking around trying to get God’s people’s eyes off Him and onto his historically evil cry of “You can be like God!”
May 18, 2012 at 7:21 pm
Fantastic post. I’m amused that the comment thread seems more fixated on the use of vulgarities rather than on your main points
but I guess that’s just how things go.
I’ve spent the past 10 years working with high school students at a Christian school and we have had many discussions about the points you raise. I’ve worked hard to clarify biblical lines for my students, and to push them toward the Word for the definition of what is sin and what should weigh on their consciences.
Honestly, I’ve interacted with plenty of people (adults and teens) who are content to tear others to shreds with their words or gossip or backbite or lie, but will go ballistic if you ask them to stop being a f—king sinner in their speech and actions. The irony of that amazes me.
All of this stems from a misunderstanding of Sin as a biblical concept. As soon as we lose our focus on what God says is the problem of humanity (our twisted, perverted nature which cries out for supernatural intervention, Grace, and the Gospel) and begin forming our own definitions of sin based on cultural mores, “standards,” or other human inventions, we lose the Gospel in the whole mess. Every phrase you target in your post *sounds* great until we hold it up to the light of the Word instead of current Christian culture.
Anyway, apologies for the ramble. Great post.
May 18, 2012 at 8:40 pm
Thanks, Ramey! And thanks for commenting!
May 18, 2012 at 7:36 pm
I’m sorry, but I find some of these offensive as a Catholic. I agree with one or two of them, but you’re taking most of these WAY out of context. For example, “It’s all in God’s plan.” God is NOT causing bad things to happen. We have FREE WILL. With free will comes CHOICES that affect everything. And I don’t know what other Christians believe (I know that Protestants don’t believe this), but Catholics believe that God has a plan for everything because, as He exists outside of time, he knows the choices we are GOING to make. He doesn’t force us to make them, we aren’t DESTINED to make them, He just knows that we will make them because He knows everything.
And when we say, “it’s all in God’s plan,” it’s because it’s something beautiful. We believe that goodness can come from suffering. Suffering can be beautiful. Christ suffered and died on the cross and, as a result, saved mankind. In my school, a sophomore named Connor developed a cancerous brain tumor and died, but in the process, he strengthened ALL of our faiths with his love, bravery, and acceptance. He showed us that death is just the beginning of a new journey. God has the ability to turn suffering and badness into joy and goodness. When we say that phrase to people, we’re telling them that they’re suffering for a REASON, that it’s NOT for nothing, and that if they just keep holding onto hope something beautiful will come of it. We are NOT trying to undermine their suffering.
I’d like to tackle ALL of these but I think that’s enough for now. I understand that you’ve probably been surrounded by bad Christian examples for a while, but the majority of Christians are wonderful people.
May 18, 2012 at 8:39 pm
To clarify: I’m a Christian.
And I don’t think that telling a mother who just lost her child, “It’s all in God’s plan…” is good whether your Catholic, Methodist, or Jewish.
I’m sorry you’re offended. I’m offended when people use these phrases. Thanks for reading and commenting, though.
May 19, 2012 at 8:57 am
Katy, I think the distinction Tim is trying to make is between saying that God _caused_ Connor’s brain tumor in order to create good, and saying that God somehow managed to _use_ Connor’s brain tumor (which is simply the result of our mortality and frailty) in order to bring about good. God redeems, but God does not necessarily always cause. To say that God caused it to make other people behave or grow is to make God the author of evil. To say that God redeemed the situation and brought good out of it in spite of its crappy, horrible circumstances makes God the author of good.
Do I believe that God knows that things will occur? Sure. But scripture also teaches that people regularly change God’s mind about things, too…so where does that leave us? All we can do is trust that God is working to redeem and renew, and leave the whys and wherefores to God. The Roman church would describe this as “mystery,” and I agree with them.
BTW, there are lots and lots of non-Catholic Christians who believe God has a plan…in fact, most do. Careful not to perpetuate stereotypes about your sisters and brothers in other branches of the Church Universal, and we’ll try to do the same for you!
Christ’s peace to you.
May 19, 2012 at 11:40 am
Very good point, Keith, and thank you for responding! I just believe that God, being goodness and love itself, would never cause harm to His children. And I want to clarify that I was NOT saying anything negative about other branches of Christianity or insinuating that they’re inferior or that the Catholic Church’s teachings are better, I was just unclear as to whether or not other branches believe the same and so I made a mention because I didn’t want to speak for EVERYONE if that wasn’t true.
May 19, 2012 at 6:20 pm
I am completely offended by your post. I lost two babies…one during emergency surgery and the other a miscarriage. I don’t think it was at all a “beautiful” part of my life. I think it was horrible, stress filled, heartbreaking mess. While it wrote on the slate of who I am, I don’t think of the “goodness” it caused me. There was no goodness. I’m happy that Connor inspired people’s faiths, but as a person who lost many family members to cancer and other people before their time, I take no comfort in your words. I believe what happened to me was part of my taking up my cross and continuing to follow Jesus in good times and bad, but I will never think those horrifying, traumatic things are some kind of wonderful journey. I am also a lung cancer survivor who lost part of her lung and no, I never smoked. While my faith is strengthened, it’s a bit more difficult for others to be ecstatic that God chose them to make an example of faith out of them. I sincerely hope that you never, ever come in contact with anyone in hospice care with that mindset. My friends and patients don’t need that kind of compassion.
May 19, 2012 at 6:22 pm
Thank you for your testimony, Sandy. A great example of why that is #1 on my list. Blessings, and thanks for commenting!
May 24, 2012 at 10:50 am
Katy
Your comment ” I know that Protestants don’t believe this” isn’t true. Well, I guess you meant to say that you THINK Protestants don’t believe “God has a plan”, but I believe you don’t have the full picture. Unless I misunderstand what you wrote, there is no difference in my conservative, evangelical, protestant understanding of “God’s plan” and yours.
May 24, 2012 at 10:53 am
Actually Katy, you were VERY clear in your comment “I KNOW that Protestants don’t believe this”. It’s just that you”know” something that isn’t true.
May 18, 2012 at 7:59 pm
” When you see terrible tragedy where you have absolutely no response other than sadness and despair, cursing happens…because you can do nothing else.”
Really . that’s when you curse? Does cursing really have to have the excuse of extremity? Most people curse when more trivial annoyance or frustration hits, bad hit in the ball game, the bloke in front takes the parking spot. Maybe it’s only certain Christians who need to make cursing purposeful and holy to justify it…
May 18, 2012 at 8:37 pm
To clarify: that’s just when I curse. Feel free to curse whenever you feel the need. But I think there are certain situations where the only thing you can do is curse. I’m not sure the guy stealing your parking spot deserves your time. But, to each their own. Thanks for reading and commenting.
May 19, 2012 at 2:50 pm
Well… fuck. I guess I need to get my priorities straight, then.
May 19, 2012 at 2:51 pm
Ha! Touche…
May 18, 2012 at 8:04 pm
curses……….I like to use mine for a stubbed toe… tragedy deserves better.
May 18, 2012 at 8:36 pm
Perhaps. Thanks for reading and commenting.
May 18, 2012 at 8:56 pm
Aren’t “curse words” words that each culture has determined to be offensive within their culture? I refuse to let others control what I do and do not say…it’s between God and me. This is a great post, thanks for sharing!
May 18, 2012 at 8:58 pm
Thanks, Amber! I think cursing is pretty arbitrary as well. I say “bloody” all the time. I hear that’s a curse in Britain…but it’s just how I prefer my steak.
Thanks for reading and commenting!
May 19, 2012 at 5:58 am
Briton here.
We use “bloody” in two ways: an adjective (as you said with your steak or when somebody’s bleeding out) and as a soft curse. Like with most places, we have an average list of curses from more offensive/hard to less/soft. “Bloody” is pretty soft – probably slightly less “offensive/hard” than damn.
I’m not sure if we swear more than Americans do… I think we just have choices. Though if want to see some real cursing, talk to an Australian.
Anyway, nice list.
May 19, 2012 at 9:21 am
Ha, thanks for the cultural correction. I intended it as a joke, but bloody well done!
May 19, 2012 at 5:59 am
Typo (whoops): “I think we just have choices.” should have been “I think we just have more choice.”
May 29, 2012 at 3:45 pm
Australian here… I resemble that remark!
. (I too cannot see Gods good plan in my child’s death… but the way God has used my/our experience of that death is profound. I even got to preach/share the story on Good Friday in the pulpit of Westminster Abbey)
May 29, 2012 at 4:21 pm
Mike, I think you are absolutely right. God stands in solidarity with us against those things in this world that take life, transforming them. God can help us to make meaning out of the meaningless places of life. That is the story of the cross. Thank you for sharing your story!
May 18, 2012 at 10:24 pm
about number four: Loving the sinner hand hating the sin does come off as judgmental. I believe a slight tweak to the phrase would be more appropriate and more in one with what Jesus actually said: Love the sinner. Hate your own sin. Gotta take that tree out of our own eye first.
Thanks for sharing.
-signed, Another cussing Pastor
May 19, 2012 at 9:24 am
Thanks Dave. That’s helpful! And cuss away.
May 18, 2012 at 10:36 pm
It’s interesting to me that Rob Bell, and you by quoting him, thinks that using Christian as a noun is a better choice than using it as an adjective. Perhaps because to me, “Christian” has become much bigger than “Christ-Follower”. The American noun “Christian” means a group of people who belong to the Christian club or tribe. It is, in my current way of seeing things, analogous to “Jew”. A Jew can be a practicing, faithful Jew – or it can be an ethnic or social qualification.
I like Christian as an adjective or adverb. Actually, I like “Christ-Like” because it seems more descriptive and easier to answer. And i like it better as an adverb, because the accounts of Jesus are typically of his actions.
Is an action the “Christian” thing to do asks if it is in the Christian tradition or perhaps the contemporary Christian status quo. Is an action “Christ-like” asks if the action supports the message of Christ. Is it showing love to God directly or by loving another person?
May 19, 2012 at 9:26 am
I think it’s a good distinction you bring up. I think a better thing to say would be, “How does my/your faith inform that action?”
Thanks for commenting and reading!
May 18, 2012 at 10:38 pm
Wow. I really enjoyed this post and found myself nodding my head a LOT. As a former Christian (and now a non-theist), I found it refreshing, and what I wish more Christians could hear and really “get” (I know they won’t hear it from me, but perhaps from those still on the inside…)
The comments picking apart the cursing thing are also wow. Kind of funny, although a bit sad, and were like an extra bonus track on a CD. A #6 for your list. Missing the forest for the trees and all that…something I remember well. Although, considering that you did touch the “gay” topic, I was rather impressed they weren’t focused on that. So kuddos, really.
May 19, 2012 at 9:23 am
Thanks, Christine. And thanks for reading!
May 18, 2012 at 11:08 pm
I feel that you are amazing graceful to these people that are attacking you because they disagree with something you said. That, to me, drives home what you said more than anything. I will definitely be sharing this because there are some nice truths in here that Christians need to see.
May 19, 2012 at 9:36 am
Thanks, Mic. Many blessings today!
May 18, 2012 at 11:41 pm
Love The Blogger. Hate The Blog.
May 19, 2012 at 9:22 am
Hmmmm….
May 20, 2012 at 3:31 pm
AMEN! Love the blogger, hate this post. If his point was ‘stop being a pharisee’ then I get it and he’s right.
But the part of this post that is trying to back up that main point was illogical and poorly thought out, and worse it’s based on feelings as opposed to reality (reality meaning the facts regarding the nature of God, of creation and of human beings). Trusting feelings, and making decisions or deciding what is right or wrong based on your feelings or the feelings of those you deal with, is always a bonehead move that will lead you down the wrong path to error and destruction.
Not to mention, he more or less logically refutes himself in almost every one of his 5 points. I won’t change his mind so I won’t bother to try. But I’ll pray for his ‘relevantly hipster’ soul and know that he’ll wake up eventually, as we all dodid.
May 20, 2012 at 4:18 pm
Again, I thank you for commenting, but I don’t agree. I’m glad you like me, though.
May 23, 2012 at 9:10 pm
I just re-read this. I’m also not a hipster. My glasses are frame-less, and tight jeans don’t look good on me. I am interested in where you think the logical inconsistencies are. I think it’s really fun to throw the word “illogical” around without taking the actual, philosophical discipline into consideration.
But, that might just be my feelings talking. My bonehead feelings.
And why isn’t “bonehead” a curse word? It seems to me that a lot of the folks who have trouble with this posting sure are using some strong language. Wow.
May 19, 2012 at 1:22 am
Matthew 12:36-37
May 19, 2012 at 9:27 am
Perhaps this is my effort to make sure my words aen’t idle.
May 19, 2012 at 4:48 am
Do you realize most of the things you mentioned in the “unChristian” part are indeed unChristian? This is a sincere question, because I know that all Christians that aren’t Amish like to nitpick at the inerrant word of God. I could source the Bible for you after I get some sleep if you need me to.
I also disagree with the “God’s plan” part. Of course everything is part of God’s plan, what with God being all-knowing and all-powerful and all. It’s God’s plan when bad things happen as much as it is when good things happen. I agree that saying this after a tragedy isn’t comforting, but God is never comforting except in issues of mortality. Most everyone that believes in Heaven believes that they and all their loved ones are getting in, regardless of what their religion might say.
May 19, 2012 at 9:31 am
Hi Mateo,
Thanks for commenting and posting. I think it’s obvious we don’t agree on this. No need to quote Scripture, I have my own bag of Scriptures to quote back. It’s a fun game to play except for everyone else who has to read it. Suffice to say, it’s OK to disagree. I would point you back to Bell’s book Velvet Elvis for a more thorough treatment of what I mean in for phrase #5.
As for phrase #1, I implore you not to use it to people facing tragedy. And, because we can’t really parse out what “God’s plan” actually means here, let’s just say that I trust the author of Ephesians when he says that God is drawing all creation unto God’s self. If that’s what you mean by plan, then we’re in agreement.
Regardless, thanks for sharing!
May 20, 2012 at 3:55 am
This is my first post of yours that I’ve read, and from the start you seem like a thoughtful person and you take the time to respond to comments, and I appreciate that.
I’m sure neither of us want to discuss fate or destiny, so instead I’m going to ask, out of curiosity, what is a better thing to say in the wake of a tragedy in your opinion?
May 20, 2012 at 4:08 am
…you know, besides screaming dammit
May 21, 2012 at 6:27 am
Mateo, How about, “I’m sorry you are going through x, y, z. Can I bring a meal to you? I’m here to listen if you’d like to talk.”
May 19, 2012 at 5:34 am
Cursing is not sinful. Gratuitous cursing is unhelpful because it highlights something in our life we cannot control. As ambassadors of Christ, we need to be always mindful of this relationship. We are empowered so we might be masters over ourselves, but there will always be times when we feel at a loss for words. No one would have used the word cunt to describe anything 2000 years ago, but John in his anger called the pharisees a brood of vipers. If you think that is not cursing, you only do so because this generation has become desensitized to expletives. I assure you that phrase would have caused an outcry and Johns arrest by Herod would have delighted the leaders because of the offense he caused. A preacher once said “shit” in his sermon. The congregation gasped and he replied “millions of people will die never knowing or understanding the deep love of God. But you are more concerned that i just said shit than you are about the lost” Some perspective is required.
May 19, 2012 at 9:34 am
Helpful, Kristian. Thanks for posting!
As a side-note, there are tons of things in my life that I can’t control. I’m not sure it weakens my ability to convey Christ to others.
May 19, 2012 at 7:38 am
bloody right!
May 19, 2012 at 7:47 am
I definitely agree with all of these! However, there’s another phrase I’d fit into #1, just because they’re both pastoral counseling failures…
The whole, “We should be celebrating/enjoying/happy/anyemotionthatisn’tcrushingagony his passing if we really believe that he’s in heaven now…” or “it’s all going to be okay because he’s in a better place…” bit.
There’s a way to put resurrection in sermons, counseling, etc., but this kind of voiced logic happens all the time and it just MAKES IT WORSE. I hate when ministers fail to validate pain. At least my pastoral counseling teacher and I are on the same page!
May 19, 2012 at 9:20 am
Thanks, Lindsey. I absolutely agree that this should also be added.
May 19, 2012 at 8:06 am
Just a thought about your point #4:
You said:
“I love gay people, I just hate that they act on their homosexual orientation…”
There we go. There’s an honest statement.
And an unhelpful one.
It’s unhelpful because, you can’t love me apart from my sexuality. I really don’t think you can. It’s part of what makes me who I am, even if it’s not the whole of my definition. So, if you were to say to me, “I love you, but I hate that you’re heterosexual…”
There is a difference between the first statement which says, “I love gay people, I just hate that they ACT on their homosexual orientation…” and “I love you, but I hate that you ARE heterosexual…”
The former hates actions, and you had just stated… “If that’s the case, name the specific action that you hate.” The latter hates the person’s orientation, which is different. A more comparable parallel to a heterosexual person would be, “I love you, but I hate that you are having sex with multiple women outside of marriage or are having an adulterous affair.”
Sexual orientation, as you said is not inherently sinful, whether or not you are heterosexual or homosexual. However, actions ARE deemed sinful in Scripture, and should be challenged.
When we make our actions our identity, we are in trouble, because not everything we feel led to do by inner compulsions are right or good.
Thoughts?
May 19, 2012 at 9:35 am
I have many thoughts on this. I guess the most pressing one is that, by design, I cannot imagine God creating me with an orientation that I wasn’t to act on. So I don’t think, in this instance, we can parse them from orientation/behavior so neatly.
Thanks for commenting!
May 19, 2012 at 4:33 pm
But then don’t we all have a sinful orientation we act upon everyday? I’m a pretty good liar…I have an urge to lie on a consistent basis. When I act out on it, it’s a sin. Can I still be loved? Yes. Can you love the fact that I might, at any point, lie to your face without thinking twice? Probably not.
I just think the whole “born this way” mentality has many negative spiritual implications. We’re all “born this way,” but that doesn’t mean it’s right. Pedophiles will often claim they can only have sexual urges when looking at children…an orientation they claim to identify with and act upon. Who’s to say that one person’s “sin” is or is not a sin but God? And furthermore, who’s to say one person’s sin is greater than another? “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God…” My point is, I believe we should love the sinner, but hate the sin, with the understanding that we all sin. I should hate my own sin as much (or more) than someone else’s (the splinter and the plank in one’s eye and all that).
I do not enjoy being lied to; but, because I understand I have committed the same transgression, and because I have been forgiven by God’s grace, I can extend the same grace and forgiveness to others who lie to me. Does this mean I condone lying? No. I agree with you that seperating orientation/behavior is difficult; however, we are all born with a sinful nature, and our behavior is often a result of that. Therefore, our determination of what constitutes a sin can only come from the word of God; condemnation can only come from God himself; but we all have the power to forgive. Should we excuse or condone sin? No; but we all sin. Should we love and forgive those who sin? Yes, because that’s what Christ did for us.
May 19, 2012 at 4:37 pm
Hey Beth, You and I disagree on this. I think sexual orientation is far different physiologically and psychologically than any sort of “liar orientation.”
Thanks for commenting, though.
May 19, 2012 at 4:41 pm
Then I’m afraid you missed the point of my post. It’s not about “liar orientation.” It’s about the inherent sinful nature of all humans and the need for grace from a savior and extending that grace to our fellow man. We should not disagree on that. If we do, our problems run far deeper than worrying about whether or not homosexuality is a sin…God will be the judge of that, not me.
May 19, 2012 at 4:42 pm
Thank you for re-explaining. My apologies. And thanks for commenting.
May 20, 2012 at 7:07 am
I think that I agree with you statement, if we are talking about original design. One of the things that we often forget is that not only does Scripture teach that humanity is created in the image of God, but also that that image has been distorted and warped by sin, and that includes all of our faculties: physical, mental, emotional, spiritual.
From birth, I was born with a genetic proclivity for alcoholism and drug addiction, because it runs through many generations of my family. From very early on, I had stirrings in this direction. Those stirrings within myself, even though they were internal, were ultimately destructive when acted upon. I understand this is a loose analogy to sexual orientation, and I also know that this issue is visceral for many people (including my sister) and much more nuanced… but the point is that not everything that we encounter in our natural order is good. I am a heterosexual male, and by design I was created for intimate union with women… however, what happens if no woman finds me attractive enough to marry, should I act on those sexual urges outside of the context of marriage, or do I live according to the restraints that God has put forth in his word. Or if I have an illness or injury that inhibits me from ever acting on those natural urges…what then?
There are many people, both hetero and homo sexual that ultimately will lead celibate lifestyles, some by choice, and others not by choice as a result of their Scriptural interpretations, genetics, illness, appearance etc. Scripture states that both marriage and celibacy in singleness are virtuous, and while Scripture celebrates human sexuality, it does not promise this as the paramount experience for all people. This is difficult to accept, particularly in a culture that is fixated on the “now” and has lost sight of eternity. It is only in light of eternity and the potential for Christ’s return at any moment that Paul urges Corinthians who can do so to remain single and focused on serving the Lord whole-heartedly.
Ultimately, I think that we have to parse between orientation and behavior because “orientation” is a contemporary cultural construct (the word expressing a particular truth) whereas Scripture often times is silent on orientation (leaving room for it) and the emotional world of its characters yet is explicit in its treatment of behaviors.
Thank you for the post, I appreciated it as a whole. I am following an organization called Love Boldly seeking reconciliation between the LGBT community and traditional Christians, and these are issues I am trying to wrestle through right now.
May 20, 2012 at 3:44 pm
Timothy. Your ‘God given’ nature, and everyone’s, is full of ‘orientations’ that you are not allowed to act on. As a male with a Y chromosome and testosterone, your orientation is to have sex a lot more frequently than you are actually allowed to do so. Allowed meaning either before you are married it is clearly forbidden by God, or after you are married it is just as clearly forbidden with anyone except your wife. This orientation you have is genetic and yet you are forbidden to act on it in most ways and times that you feel the need to do so.
If you would say that is not the same thing as being gay and never being able to legitimately act on an orientation, then what about those who never marry, male or female? They too have a legitimate, genetically derived orientation and need that they can never legitimately act on, at least if you believe the bible. It doesn’t mean their orientation is a sin, though.
And for those whose genetic orientation IS in some way a sin, like pedophiles, or liars, or narcissists, or psychopaths … they had these natures from birth, perhaps genetically, is it fair that they can never act upon their ‘orientation’? Is it a given that God made them this way or is it possible that they are they this way because the universe if fallen and defective? Something to think about.
May 20, 2012 at 4:17 pm
Yeah, I reject this thinking. Thank you for posting, though.
May 19, 2012 at 8:30 am
Interesting post. I agree that from a semantics standpoint, it may not be comforting for someone to hear the specific words ‘It’s all in God’s plan’ when something terrible has happened. That being said, a better way to phrase it in my opinion is, ‘God is in control.’ I have had that mentioned to me during times of trouble and it encouraged me. It’s a better way of saying it but I think the message is important at times like that, because if He isn’t in control then people are just dying or getting sick or whatever for no reason at all whatsoever and that is a helpless feeling. So, I agree that the way you say it should be monitored but I do feel that reinforcing that God knows what He is doing in tough times is still important. It can just be said a little better, that’s all. Have a great day!
May 19, 2012 at 9:15 am
Thanks for commenting, Brian. I also think it’s important to reinforce that God walks with us through tough times.
May 19, 2012 at 9:01 am
Wow, what is with this bizarre focus on the cursing part of this? It’s as though people are reading this post and completely avoiding the painful/uncomfortable part, which is about the things we as Christians say that are hurtful, unscriptural, and just plain off-the-mark from what Christ was talking about. If you’re about to post about Tim’s cursing, please, please, please, just stop, and re-read the article, and deal with the profound questions he raises. You’re going for the easy stuff, and not dealing with the challenging part. C’mon. You can do it.
May 19, 2012 at 9:14 am
Ha, thanks Keith. I think it is indicative of the common definition of sin to focus on the small nuance in order to ignore the important issues.
Who knew Screwtape Letters wasn’t fiction?
May 19, 2012 at 9:36 am
I have to disagree with the comments about sexual identity. We need to clearly warn people about sin, as God defines it. My natural inclination is to pursue multiple sex partners. If I were to do so, I hope my fellow Christians would confront and warn me. So, yes I love my homosexual friends AND I express that love by warning them of God’s words on their behavior. That does not mean I hate them or treat them differently than others.
May 19, 2012 at 9:43 am
Thanks, David. It’s clear we don’t agree on this issue, and there are a variety of interpretations on what “God’s word” says on the issue (I wouldn’t have chosen that sort of phrasing, I think).
I think my natural inclination is to not go after any partners again. Marriage is tough
Thanks for commenting and reading!
May 24, 2012 at 3:03 pm
So, engaging in adultery, fornication, and homosexuality is not sinful?
Can you back that up?
May 24, 2012 at 3:12 pm
Hey arthur, I never wrote that. I expressed that David and I don’t agree on the issue.
I think using sexuality in a way that does not respect the fact that it is a gift with responsibility is sinful.
I do not agree that homosexuality is sinful. That view comes from Biblical interpretation, text criticism, and thoughtful study…and is too complicated for this post.
In short, the word “homosexual” doesn’t appear in Scripture. And I’ll reaffirm that Paul had no idea what orientation was…no one of that time did.
A place that might offer you some resources for how someone could be Christian and believe monogamous homosexuality (like monogamous heterosexuality) is not sinful can be found at: http://affirmingword.wordpress.com/
Another helpful resource would be “The Sins of Scripture” by John Shelby-Spong, as well as “Falling to Grace” by Jay Bakker…and about a thousand other good books on the subject.
May 19, 2012 at 6:11 pm
To be honest, telling people that heterosexuality is somehow morally “better” is hate speech, and although you might take a “don’t hate the sinner; hate the sin” attitude… those teachings empower bullies and help ensure that LGBT youth will continue facing huge rates of bullying, familial rejection (being disowned), and being driven to suicide. Given that there are much less homophobic interpretations of the Christian biblical canon, why follow an interpretation that causes so much harm for the benefit of no one?
May 19, 2012 at 6:15 pm
Thanks, Annetta. A great point.
May 20, 2012 at 3:35 am
Because God said it is immoral for men to lie with other men, just like He said it is wrong for men to lie with their widowed stepmoms.
Temptation is not an excuse. And yes, we are tempted to excuse our immoral conduct on the basis of the underlying temptation.
May 20, 2012 at 5:40 am
Hi Michael,
It’s obvious that we don’t agree on this issue. Thank you for your respectful tone, and thanks for commenting.
May 19, 2012 at 11:16 am
As a fellow pastor, I really appreciate this post. The only one I’d want to nuance is #5. My wife, who is also a pastor, has some members of her congregation who speak very inappropriately to her. She has gotten to the point where it is necessary for her to tell them “It is not Christian to speak to me in that tone of voice.”
In all the examples you’ve given, I think you are right. But there are also legitimate times when people needed to be called out for failing to live in love and peace with one another. If the church can’t be that kind of community, then we have failed.
May 19, 2012 at 1:52 pm
Hey JB, I understand what you mean. One thing I might say, in this case, would be “The things that you are saying don’t remind me of Christ.” I think that might be a helpful distinction.
Thanks for commenting!
May 19, 2012 at 11:38 am
There are situations that prompt loud and hasty exclamations, but cursing which includes the name of any of the Trinity with vile words are sinful. These are listed as sins and the consequences are clearly stated, i.e. Matthew. 12:36, 37. Clean up your mouth and your mind and learn to use the language with more skill to define your anger or your joy, as the case may be.
I could write a thesis on these and other phrases commonly used to define Christian behavior. But back to the cursing–Christians shouldn’t!
May 19, 2012 at 1:51 pm
Wow, Gayle. Sorry to offend. I really want to stress: this blog isn’t about cursing. And sometimes I think Christians should cuss. We obviously don’t agree on this. Thanks for posting, though.
May 6, 2013 at 2:43 pm
I know this was posted last year, but I just wanted to comment on this. If Christians shouldn’t cuss, then they need to understand it’s the intent with which they use a word that determines whether or not it’s cursing. To say “SHOOT!” in place of sh*t is still cursing. The intent in both sentences is the same. When my fellow Christians stop substituting “ok” words as curses, I’ll stop cussing. Until then, I’ve got a point to make.
May 19, 2012 at 12:00 pm
Wonderful thoughts. A small thing, perhaps unimportant, but because it conveys meaning “the people they AFFECT” (that is the people they have an EFFECT upon!). Isn’t English a crazy language?
May 19, 2012 at 1:49 pm
Ha! Thomas, you found it. There is always at least one (in this case, probably more) grammatical mistake. My copy editor is non-existent.
Thanks!
May 19, 2012 at 12:13 pm
Thank you. As a young adult with a cancer diagnosis, I can personally attest to the hurtfulness of #1. In my support group, one of the things that we’ve come back to time and again is that there’s just really no good thing to say in response to the cancer situation, and, speaking as a formerly incredibly gung-ho Christian, “it’s all in God’s plan” is probably one of the worst. Somehow, it’s akin to “you should feel honored that God has chosen you for this ridiculous form of suffering so that I can grow to be a better person.”
Personally, I think that crying out profanities with me is the most appropriate response I’ve come across yet.
May 19, 2012 at 1:49 pm
Hey Jenn, thanks for sharing your testimony. Many prayers for you on this journey. I stand with you in cursing.
May 19, 2012 at 12:19 pm
I have never been much of a swearer. My kids, who are now adults, do not swear in front of me because they know that I consider it rude. As we discussed their reading material as they were growing up, I made a distinction between vulgarity, blasphemy, and abusive language.
Now I work at a college and I react differently from hearing someone talk about their “f—king great weekend” or the “girl they “f—ked last week”. I’d really not hear it at all, but the second comment is like a slap.
May 19, 2012 at 1:47 pm
This blog isn’t really about swearing. And as someone who doesn’t much care for that word, I agree with you. But sometimes there’s not much else to be said on some points.
Thanks for commenting.
May 19, 2012 at 12:38 pm
Interesting!
May 19, 2012 at 1:24 pm
This is spot on, thank you! 100% agree with all of the above. Especially as a Christian who’s a future yoga teacher. With tattoos. Who occasionally swears.
May 19, 2012 at 1:42 pm
Ha, thanks! Many blessings. I hope to get another tattoo pretty soon…
May 21, 2012 at 5:57 pm
Homesclmom: Praise God and all the Angels and Saints! The only difference between you and me is that I’m an old codger and you are not. I swear uncontrollably when on the Pickleball court, BUT, apologize immediately afterward. I also Praise God profusely when I make a good shot. There are some who say God doesn’t give a damn if I play well or not, but I argue that God wants me to be happy. I have a tattoo of kissing dolphins AND I have a lesbian daughter who I love and adore and is the best mother in the world. I am so grateful to Timothy Brown for, after all these years, correcting my thinking about loving the “sinner”, but hating the sin. God lovingly created ALL of us, including our sexual orientation. I can now say that I love my daughter with no “buts”! HOORAY!
May 19, 2012 at 1:41 pm
This clearly pleases the world.
May 19, 2012 at 1:46 pm
Hmmm…no sure. But thanks for reading and commenting!
May 19, 2012 at 2:10 pm
You are a pastor? And you are teaching on things with the foundation of “not sure” – ?
May 19, 2012 at 2:14 pm
I think pastors too often state with certitude those things that they question. I’d just rather be upfront about it.
The specifics of my “not sure” (actually, I typed too fast and it was “no sure”) comment was because I’m not certain what you mean by “like by the world.”
May 19, 2012 at 1:55 pm
Nice piece, and I’m happy to see it picked up by Christians Tired of Being Misrepresented on Facebook. Recent research also suggests that cursing can actually reduce the length and severity of pain. As long as you don’t go “full-Newsweek” about it: http://jmcpherson.wordpress.com/2012/01/27/newsweek-opts-for-immature-profanity-over-depth/
May 19, 2012 at 1:56 pm
Ha, love this! Thanks, James!
May 19, 2012 at 2:01 pm
And thank you. I just read it aloud to my wife. Like me, she especially enjoyed the line, “She’s just have to say no.”
May 19, 2012 at 2:04 pm
I love them all, especially 1 and 2. There is no “plan,” believing that there was caused me much harm, psychologically and spiritually. And 99% of everything ever said about “God’s will” is pure b.s. The only good thing I’ve ever heard anyone say about God’s will is that it is love, nothing more, nothing less.
May 19, 2012 at 2:04 pm
Agree! Thanks, Steve! And thanks for commenting!
May 19, 2012 at 2:04 pm
Wow! Great article. Thank you. IME, my “good Christian friends” deserted me when I was in crisis. I was not doing things right or whatever. Or I needed to do xyz. How very sad. My daughter is gay, clearly I did something wrong. My 21 year old son shot himself August 2010, clearly I did something wrong.
The ones who stuck by me, held me up, were and are the “bad Christians” the ones who are real, whom we share our struggles, the ones I can call on when I am riding another wave of grief. The ones who remember how difficult mother’s day is for me, who will remember our family on the 2nd anniversary of my son’s death. Who remember us each holiday knowing we have an empty chair at the table. THOSE are the people I love, adore and see Christ in.
May 19, 2012 at 2:06 pm
Amen, Lisa! Thanks for commenting. And many blessings to you and your family.
May 19, 2012 at 2:57 pm
That cannot be easy. Your strength and love for your family is something that should be emulated.
May 19, 2012 at 2:37 pm
I enjoyed that! Although some of the nit-picking comments were just so…nit-picky. I’m sure there are many people who have used these phrases in hopes of encouraging someone. Unfortunately, the message that the encourage-ee might actually hear is “Oops..you’re doing this wrong! Back up a little bit and doing it the way God and I want you to, and then maybe you’ll be okay.” Which is somehow not an encouragement at all. And to me, that’s really the point.
May 19, 2012 at 2:40 pm
Right. We all make mistakes. I worry that some people who may have used these phrases might be feeling guilty. It’s ok. I’ve used each one of these phrases over my life…I’ve just learned a bit from it. Thanks, Christi!
May 19, 2012 at 2:59 pm
And as far as the cussing goes, my daughter says it’s all in the outward inflection and the inward intention…purple! lampshade!! yogurt!!! She tells me that she “cusses” regularly in front of the small children she works with.
May 19, 2012 at 2:37 pm
Thanks for your thoughts and for the very caring ways you are responding to everyone. I also cringe when hearing ‘it’s God’s will/plan’. God walks *with* me in sorrow and transforms me in my journey through grief. There are times when I am very angry with God about all that’s going very wrong in the world. I figure God can handle my anger. Lament psalms comfort me in being so honest with God.
May 19, 2012 at 2:40 pm
Amen! Thanks, BJ!
May 19, 2012 at 2:40 pm
Just want to take a moment for sharing your thoughts. Having been on the receiving end of it I especially appreciate #1.
May 19, 2012 at 2:41 pm
Thanks for stopping by and commenting, Tammi! Blessings.
May 19, 2012 at 2:54 pm
FUCKING A-RIGHT! As a trans person, I’ve heard that “love the sinner” phrase so many times. As if to say that it’ll make everything a-okay, because I’ll obviously stop being a woman if I hear that they “love” me enough times… which is funny considering the fact that someone in a conversation told me that they knew I “cared deeply” for my partner, to which I thought about responding “You REALLY don’t know the definition of the world ‘love’, do you?” Thank you for writing this!
Grace and peace to you!
May 19, 2012 at 3:01 pm
Many blessings, Christina. Thank you for sharing a glimpse of your journey with us!
May 19, 2012 at 3:25 pm
Wow. Love this post! As a Christian who also happens to be a writer that often writes about decidedly “un-Christian” things (I’m currently working on a romance/love triangle story between a pastor, a lawyer, and the ex-wife of a deacon), I so get you on every one of these. But, especially the first one. What? You can’t be a Christian and messed up at the same time. Religion is process, a lifestyle. You don’t go to bed screwed and wake up perfect. I’m not even sure most of the people who say these things even read the bible. If they do, I think they’re missing the point…
May 19, 2012 at 3:30 pm
Totally agreed. And I look forward to your book! Please let me know when it drops. I’m pretty sure it’s probably non-fiction
May 20, 2012 at 10:26 pm
May 19, 2012 at 3:37 pm
Reblogged this on lifeofjennie.
May 19, 2012 at 4:08 pm
No comment,but hope you have a good day man!!
May 19, 2012 at 4:09 pm
You too, Brian! Blessings.
May 19, 2012 at 4:31 pm
God…in my perception, always says “Yes”.
So “Have a ______ day.” Well, tis up to the individual in my humble opinion.
One’s vicious words in one’s head directed toward others and Self might need to be the ones brought into the Light.
Oh, and when I am in ecstacy, I say “Oh Gawd”.
Another can not assume to tell me what I mean by a simple word, you can’t see my spelling. So there.
When i am stressed, I swear. Thanks God (which is everywhere), because I know when I hear my utterance, it’s time to spend more time with my Free Will, choosing to say thanks for what is Grand in my life. I am in Gratitude for a Great Blog. I admire your centered responses. You embody Christ in my opinion and only due to that ability. Have a superb and blessed life.
May 19, 2012 at 4:43 pm
Ahhh…. as a fellow reluctant xer i am so glad ti have found your blog. I appreciate that you captured the top five…
May 19, 2012 at 4:43 pm
Many thanks, Lynnie! Blessings on your day.
May 19, 2012 at 4:43 pm
You lost me at #4. Absolutely love the sinner – love them to repentance – but don’t condone the sinful actions. By your logic, I love the alcoholic only if I accept that the tendency to drink himself to oblivion is simply who he is. I love my friend having an affair and I accept that who she is is someone “in love with” a man not her husband. Nope, love the sinner enough to bring them to repentance and into fellowship with God, don’t accept sinful actions as simply being ‘who they are”.
May 19, 2012 at 4:46 pm
I think we need to come to an agreement as a society that sexual orientation and addictions/psychological problems/fetishes are different.
Likewise, we need to make a distinction between behavior and orientation. I think that, had Paul known about orientation, he would have written differently about it.
(And before anyone inundates this column with “Paul didn’t write it, God did!” lets just agree to disagree about that part).
So, don’t stay with an abusive wife/husband, don’t allow your friend to live as an alcoholic to the extent that you can change them, and don’t lump either of those two with sexual orientation, please.
May 19, 2012 at 5:44 pm
I don’t think that is something we are going to agree on. I might have agreed with you 10 years ago but I have come full circle in my understanding.
I never wondered why Paul didn’t write about “sexual orientation” but if you were to ask me, I woudn’t guess it was because he didn’t know about it. I would suggest his writing was to encourage / discourage our actions and habits. He knew we all wrestled with emotions and impulses so he didn’t write about them as wrong.
I realise this is only one of our points but it stopped me.
May 19, 2012 at 4:59 pm
I found this post via twitter. I wish there were more Christians like you in the world. Thank you for this post. My husband and I got a chuckle and nod out of several parts (though we are not Christian ourselves). I was wondering if you’d read this article? http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/04/18/wtf-study-shows-swearing-reduces-pain/ Rather an eye-opener when it comes to swearing
Anyway, I think I’ll be reading the rest of your blog. Thanks for being kind.
May 19, 2012 at 5:00 pm
Ha, thanks Hottie. You’re the second person to recommend that article to me!
Thanks for reading and commenting.
May 19, 2012 at 5:30 pm
This is a beautiful post – thank you for saying these things. I get so embarrassed by some of the awfulness I that’s spoken in the name of Jesus that I sometimes hesitate to think of myself as a “Christian” at all. This was just what I needed to hear today – thanks so much
May 19, 2012 at 6:04 pm
You’re most welcome, Candace!
May 19, 2012 at 7:20 pm
Great post. Socially and culturally, I suppose I am a “Christian”. My family and I celebrate Christmas and Easter, and are fairly well-versed on the basic Christian teachings. However, I gave up that descriptor long ago theologically, in part because of the these 5 phrases (and others) that kept coming at me, and which I could not accept. Thank you for such a balanced and helpful post, which I hope every Christian and non-Christian out there ponders carefully. I also want to mention that my more recent, creedless faith of Unitarian-Universalism once had a bumper sticker that said, “Honk If You’re Not Sure” so based on one of your other comments today, I think you’ve got the right idea. Thanks again for sharing these thoughts!
May 19, 2012 at 8:23 pm
Reblogged this on A Fresh Start.
May 19, 2012 at 8:25 pm
You’ll find no mention of free will in the Bible (other than a free will offering). We our dead in our sin with no way to come to the Father until the Spirit draws us (John 3 & 6) If we’re going to say it’s all “free will”, what about those who never hear the Gospel? None come to the Father but through the Son. Somewhere, somehow through God’s sovereign will someone brought you the good news and the spirit gave you life. No longer a slave to sin, but a slave of God.
Rick
May 19, 2012 at 9:08 pm
I think that the part that I most enjoyed out of this was the “It’s all part of God’s plan” one. I have heard that so much from my church-going friends, and you’re right- it’s not very comforting. Thanks for sharing; marvelous.
May 19, 2012 at 9:41 pm
Thank you so much for this post. I can relate to it in so many ways!!
May 19, 2012 at 9:58 pm
I have a couple more phrases to add:
1). “I’m speaking the truth in love/saying this because I love you.” This is a precursor to a Christian brother or sister telling you how they think you’re failing at being a Christian, or some other judgment of your life. This phrase then absolves them of just being a rude, judgmental a-hole.
2). “God doesn’t give you more than you can handle.” I beg to differ. My 8-year-old daughter had a choking accident last year and now has brain damage due to lack of oxygen. She almost didn’t make it, and after she pulled through we were told she might never walk, talk, or recognize us again (she is making slow but steady progress, but we have a long way to go). This is something I cannot handle. I couldn’t handle it when she was lying in the PICU. I couldn’t handle it when they gave us really, really horrible news and had to make impossible choices. Nope. Can’t handle any of this. The only reason I am not a complete basket case on a regular basis is because I stand firm on my faith (and an anti-depressant helps A LOT). But, in no way do I think God gave this to me because he thought I could handle almost losing my daughter, and now, dealing with her severe disabilities.
Thanks for letting me add my two cents.
May 20, 2012 at 5:49 am
Thanks for your testimony, Melissa. Many blessings!
May 21, 2012 at 12:36 pm
He does not.
Mankind takes more than they can handle.
May 19, 2012 at 10:04 pm
Thank you for this blog. I found it through a series of degrees of separation on Facebook. I, myself, am Jewish, but was intrigued by the title. Knowing the friend who posted it, I had to read the article. I’m so glad I did. This list applies to Judaism as well (I wont speak for other religions, but I believe it could apply to some others also). Just switch out a few words here and there and the points are equally as valid. In my opinion, religion is about love and being the best person you can be, the dogma/hallachah which guides a person in their actions is more a matter of semantics. Your list reflects a great deal of love and respect for your fellow humans out there. I’m so honored to have happened upon this article! Thank you for your insight – it is universal.
May 19, 2012 at 10:29 pm
I’m trying to wrap my head around #4. Are you saying we should love sin just because a person claims it is part of who they are?
May 20, 2012 at 5:53 am
No. It’s not subjective. I don’t think that I claim I’m a heterosexual…I am a heterosexual.
May 23, 2012 at 2:58 am
I don’t see how that is an answer. It’s either yes or no. Heterosexuality is not mentioned as a sin in the Bible except out of wedlock. I’m talking about sin, those things that God despises. What about pedophiles? Or serial rapists or murderers? That is what makes them who they are, isn’t it?
May 24, 2012 at 3:20 pm
So, I would say lumping my homosexuality into a category that also refers to “rapists” and “pedophiles” is really insulting and disgusting.
I know you think you’re talking about sin, but you’re talking about orientation. And orientation is not sinful. For a helpful word on this, check out: http://affirmingword.wordpress.com/
May 24, 2012 at 3:49 pm
“So, I would say lumping my homosexuality into a category that also refers to “rapists” and “pedophiles” is really insulting and disgusting. I know you think you’re talking about sin, but you’re talking about orientation. And orientation is not sinful. For a helpful word on this, check out: http://affirmingword.wordpress.com/”
I’m sure some, if not most pedophiles would say that they’re oriented to like children instead of adults; and the Bible never outright calls out pedophilia does it? (It kind of does in the Torah, but we’re clearly throwing that out to justify homosexuality.) So, if a pedophile was in a monogamous relationship with a child, it’s all good?
I don’t like to quote Paul because not all of Paul’s works can be traced straight back to him. So, I’ll use the words that the Bible records from Jesus on the matter. (And since some question the authenticity of Matthew, I’ll also use Mark for this purpose)
Jesus says in Chapter 7
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,22 thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”
So these things are described as evil. Fornication is mentioned there. Now, to note your idea that monogamous same-sex relationships are ‘ok’, I’ll offer another quote;
Jesus says in Mark 10
5 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female. 7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”
So, fornication is evil and marriage from the beginning was male and female. So monogamous or not, it’s clearly defined as evil, as sex outside of marriage is fornication. Being that from the beginning, marriage was a male and a female, there’s really no way to justify homosexual activity as anything but fornication.
Thus it is evil, it is sin. Twist it all you like, but to do so is to deprive those who would follow Christ a true relationship with Him and with God. As John 9 says “”We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him.”. How can someone have a relationship with God if they are actively ‘in sin’? All sin and fall short of God, but to remain in unrepentant sin and return to it, is to willingly separate yourself from God. I’ll very gladly share this to be the truth, as I struggled with pornography and lust for a number of years, wondering why I would pray and never feel like God heard me. When I REPENTED (turned away from) and left my sin behind, I began a relationship with God like I never knew before.
May 24, 2012 at 4:07 pm
Pedophilia is not a sexual orientation, it is a deviation. You can’t be “oriented” toward children. The American Psychiatric Association continues to call pedophilia a deviation, but removed homosexuality in 1973.
All of your Biblical citations are fine. Jesus is indeed calling fornication as something sinful, I would agree. Fornication is using sexuality in a way that does not respect its power.
And, actually, there are many who would translate the Greek words that are commonly (and mistakenly) translated as “homosexual” in the NT as a word describing cultic pedophilia.
Regardless, thank you for sharing your story. Pornography is a very clear example of people using their sexuality without regard to the responsibility it holds. It is indeed right to acknowledge that “if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” Repentance is good and necessary; I repent of many things every day. But if I were homosexual, I would not repent of it.
I really encourage you to look at that blog and check out the material. You will see where I am coming from on it, even if you don’t agree.
But please, don’t equate pedophilia and homosexuality. Here is a helpful study on the subject from the University of California at Davis: http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html
May 24, 2012 at 4:01 pm
So while he’s obviously confused about the difference between relationships involving consenting adults and those involving criminals and victims, it does sound like he is making an excellent biblical argument in favor of gay marriage.
May 24, 2012 at 4:08 pm
Hmmm…I hadn’t looked at it that way, James. Excellent point.
May 19, 2012 at 11:07 pm
Wow. This is such a refreshing, thoughtful piece of writing. I enjoyed it so much.
May 20, 2012 at 12:09 am
In all Honesty… if people find this post post offensive… the author should find the commenters offensive. Don’t read it then. Or do– and learn from it. Or write your own blog.
May 20, 2012 at 1:57 am
Wonder why this example wasn’t pointed out:
Me: “The Bible clearly says homosexuality is a sin and that homosexuals need to repent of it.”
Response: “You can’t judge homosexuals! It isn’t Christian!”
No, that really does happen.
Honestly, this is one of the stupidest blog posts I’ve ever read. Read James 3 sometime. This tongue you curse with was made to praise God. Do you think God really wants to hear your praises after you’ve been using it to utter vile, contemptuous words? It’s like licking the toilet bowl and then kissing your wife.
As to your cursing in the face of tragedy and pain, exactly where do you think those things come from? Who is sovereign over those things? God causes the sun to shine on the evil and the good and the rain to fall on the righteous and unrighteous. So when you curse these events, you are really cursing God. That should give you pause to reconsider your call for more cursing. It might even make you want to tame that filthy tongue of yours, “pastor.” Hey — why don’t you put your money where your mouth is (no pun intended) and try cursing more during your Sunday sermons or when you officiate a funeral. See how well that would go over.
May 20, 2012 at 5:52 am
It wasn’t pointed out because, well, I don’t think it’s correct.
…and I obviously reject the idea that God causes pain in the world. We really really have dropped the ball on helping people think critically about the implications of believing that God causes everything to happen piece by piece. That idealization is more akin to Zeus than the Judeo-Christian God.
May 20, 2012 at 6:39 pm
To deny that God causes pain in the world is to deny Scripture and God Himself. The Father did not even spare His own Son from suffering and it pleased Him to do so. There are many, many verses about God bringing suffering, calamity, persecution and pain upon us in order to glorify Himself through us. God DOES cause everything to happen. That’s what His being sovereign means! Zeus? Zeus clearly was NOT sovereign.
May 23, 2012 at 3:17 am
God does not cause pain and suffering, but he does allow it to happen. This is found all throughout the Bible. Anyone who does not believe that is living in some kind of make-believe Christian world. God gives free will. We make decisions in our lives that effect us eventually in life, whether it be by the company we keep or what we put into our bodies. And sometimes, as with the story of Job, bad things happen to good people. Can God control that? Of course He can, but how would we learn anything if our lives were perfect? The answer is, we wouldn’t; we would become brats, like Adam and Eve. And as another Christian friend stated to me recently, “We live in a fallen world. But most bad things that happen are a result of man’s rebellion and bad choices and sin, and there are consequences for that sin. We can’t leave out that we have an enemy, Satan, and the Word tells us that he is also the prince of the power of the air, and he is at work to kill, steal and destroy and uses rebellious men for his purposes. “
May 20, 2012 at 2:27 am
Tim,
You try to make some good points, and there is a measure of truth in there in the right context, but I have to say, your whole article borders on a presentation of living a watered-down heretical version of the Gospel message.
You have very succintly pointed out and labelled in neon lights the picture of the last days Laodocian church as described by Jesus in The Revelation. As you know, he said, “…your lukewarm approach to the gospel makes me vomit, and I would rather you be hot or cold….” (His words!)
You will probably attract scores of semi-committed, lukewarm, spineless, or half-hearted Believers and even New Agers with this type of casual, lets-not-tell-it-or-live it-like-we-should Gospel. But, throughout the New Testament specifically, Jesus was very forthright and direct about matters of right and wrong and living a conduct that was not aligned with living like the world around you….and yes that included, not cursing,…or at its very basics, not making a joke about it even when you do.
God is a very Holy God, seeking and desiring a spotless Bride, not a foul-mouthed barfly….He is not our buddy.
Do not dance with the devil…he will trip you up.
Gary
May 20, 2012 at 5:44 am
Hi Gary,
I have no illusions that God is “my buddy;” quite far from it. I think that you and I don’t agree on a many number of things, the least of which is your interpretation of what I’ve written as “watered down.” In fact, I might even suggest that such interpretations that fail to see the complexity in balancing scripture and human experience, weighing and judging one against the other, is living a watered down spiritual life. The Bible hasn’t always been taken literally, you know…
And Martin Luther cursed, and I think he did alright in many respects (he was also an ass in many respects).
By the way, cursing wasn’t the point of this article. Amazed, still, at all the people who are bothered by the cursing.
Thanks for commenting, Gary.
May 20, 2012 at 11:47 pm
Hello Keith,
I think individual passages, not expounded, can skew folks all over the map….
Both passages are correct or God would not have placed them in the Bible. Everything is in there for a specific reason.
In this regard, context is key.: Acts 13.39 is Paul explaining to The Jews and the Gentiles on his first missionary journey that the core and supremacy of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (the message of the eternal forgiveness of sin by faith) over that of the Law of Moses;…..while in Mark 3.28 this is a passage where Jesus is being accused by the Jewish leaders as getting his power from Satan;….hence, because he was a physical human man, filled and led by The Holy Spirit, the religious leaders were in fact calling the Holy Spirit in Jesus, Satanl!!….in other words calling God himself, Satan…… That might just buy you some Lake of Fire time!
The issue of lukewarmness stems from not fully deciding in your mind that Christ really is, The Way, the Truth, and The Life; and deciding to get with the program and live it out. One might think, ‘there might be something just a little better down the road; let me check out a few things’….As we know in the scriptures there were some followers of Christ and even the apostles who “fell away” from the faith. The parable of the various types of soils in Matthew says the same thing.
Lukewarmness is more like an uncommitted husband or wife in a marriage. You have to make a conscious decision that he or she is worthy, come hell or high water, and you will honor your committment to the end…whatever that may be. When God sees your heart in that mindset, he will move Heaven and Earth on your behalf…and lukewarmness will not be an issue.
Good question.
Gary
May 20, 2012 at 11:52 pm
Your welcome..interesting site and commentary…even for those of us who can disagree.!
May 20, 2012 at 10:24 am
Gary,
The reason so many of us seem to be lukewarm is because of these two passages from the NIV.
……
Acts 13:39
[38] “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you [39] Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.
Mark 3:28-29
[28] Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, [29] but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
……
Which one is correct?
Both?
Neither?
Or, does the answer lie somewhere in between?
Thanks for listening to my question.
Keith
May 20, 2012 at 11:50 pm
I meant to reply to you here….see above.
May 23, 2012 at 3:53 am
Ah, but you leave out so many relevant scriptures, such as 1 John 3:4-10, where he explains that one who is born of God will not continue to sin, and he who does continue to sin does not know God. While we are forgiven, God expects us to do our best to turn away from those sins that drag us down. This is also relevant to the issue of “hanging out with other Christians,” rather than continuing to keep ourselves surrounded by unbelievers who will cause us to sin. Then there is John 8, when Christ was confronted by the teachers of the law concerning the woman accused of adultery. When no one accused her, He instructed her to “Go now and leave your life of sin.” There are other scriptures similar. Taking scripture out of context is why the Word is not understood by so many. Anyone can read the Bible. Studying it is when you begin to understand it, and so many new Christians aren’t doing that; they are just listening to what they’re told instead of really looking into it themselves.
May 20, 2012 at 4:23 am
I’d like to point out a phrase that kills me every time “God is good”. Specifically when Christians use this after they have been treated well or given something amazing by people around them. This bothers me because they are completely forgetting the small people who made their decisions to help, who have kindness in their hearts, and did it because they love their fellow man. I am not a Christian and I am good to people because I love them and it’s the right thing to do, but hearing that phrase makes it seem like I am just a “tool”, a zombie fulfilling God’s plan for THEM, a God that I don’t even believe in. I might as well not be involved. I just wish Christians would be inspired by the human spirit and not mistake it for the Christian God’s love for them all the time. It’s a little selfish.
It’s not inspiring for me to think this infallible omnipotent creator did something nice for me, but thinking about lots of ordinary strangers from all walks of life and faiths coming together to do something good… THAT’S inspiring to me, that’s humbling, that’s amazing. There are so many people who aren’t Christians who commit random acts of kindness for no other reason than the good of their community or the love in their hearts, and that phrase completely negates the power of loving human interaction. If not all evil is from God, than not all good is either. People do absolutely amazing things, even the ones who aren’t Christians. I felt this fit into the whole theme of your blog because it was about bringing back the human being in our interactions and allowing ourselves to be flawed and connect with each other. I desperately hope for this.
I loved the whole blog. I didn’t like the comments, but some were supportive and I love to see Christians being Christ-like and embracing others. There is so much we can learn from each other.
May 20, 2012 at 4:46 am
Thank you for sharing this. I’ve had very similar thoughts myself over cursing verses the hurtful comment that wounds a person and embeds in their psyche as a negative they carry with them. Your post is very thoughtful, and I like the emphasis on how we treat each other versus the often legality of what isn’t suppose to be a religion of law anymore.
May 20, 2012 at 9:20 am
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and opinions. You bring up some good things for people to think about and ponder when it comes to language . I have found as christians we can sometimes quickly cause harm without intention thru poor choice in words.
May 20, 2012 at 9:33 am
This was a pretty interesting article and all, but I think you’re missing a very important idea in your view point here. It seems that you base your opinions and ideas on life more on what seems right, what feels right, and what you think should be right, and then if the Bible has anything to say on the matter, well, then that’s cool too. From my experience, the people I’ve known and talked to, it’s much harder to understand life when your primary method of ascertaining truth is your own brain. We have number 1, the Bible, a source of absolute truth in physical form, and number 2, the Holy Spirit Himself through whom God oftentimes can reveal His own will to man. Saying things like “I don’t feel like this should be true” or something like that is not really a valid argument for anything. So while I appreciate your intellectualism and also your spiritual mindedness, throwing out phrases like “people can’t stomach” certain ideas doesn’t make any sense. Does that mean it’s not true for them, or not true at all? Does that mean it’s rude to try to explain that to them if they happen to ask or something? No. You have to have your priorities straight, and if telling someone the truth will help them be a better person and understand God and themselves more, then who cares if it was an uncomfortable idea to struggle with??? People go through uncomfortable stuff all the time, and struggle with ideas every day. And if, through God’s help, you can come out on the other side knowing more about who you are and who God is, then you’ve won out the day. I think it’s easy to get into the mindset of preferring other people’s feelings over truth, and that can be dangerous. While it’s still wrong to just trample on people’s emotions while being brutally and unnecessarily honest, there are many times where things just come down to brass tax, and you gotta tell people what’s what, and guess what? It’s the truth, and it doesn’t matter what you “feel” about anything. Because honestly, I’ve had many times where people told me stuff about myself that I though was totally untrue, and I thought it was really rude of them to tell me that. Afterwards I talked with God a lot and read my Bible, and I felt convicted. I looked back upon the incident and couldn’t have seen any other way of that person telling me what they did. I needed to be sternly spoken to, because otherwise, I never would’ve needed to grapple with it so much, cuz I would’ve just brushed it off as that person’s opinion and nothing more. Sorry for the ramble there, not trying to write another blog on your blog here. Anyways, interesting post, but I would suggest keeping God’s word in mind waaaaaay more in the future. Especially as a pastor, it falls upon you more than most people to make sure you don’t lead others astray, since you’ve been placed in a teaching and leading position.God bless.
May 20, 2012 at 10:19 am
Amen on #1! That’s one (in a different form) that people across all faiths seem to have in common (instead of “it’s God’s will” they just say “everything happens for a reason” – GAH!). And it’s horrifying.
(See: http://gigigriffis.com/things-that-need-to-go-away-part-ii/)
May 20, 2012 at 11:04 am
I LOVE this. I grew up in a Christian household but no longer follow the faith. I attempt to understand some of the reasoning some may have for saying the statements you listed. I don’t get why many Christians can’t follow the Commandment “Love thy neighbor”. That Commandment doesn’t specify a particular religious group, sexual orientation, race or gender.
In my personal opinion, I feel the most “Christian” thing a Christian could do is simply do as that Commandment says and “Love Thy Neighbor”. The rest then seems irrelevant.
We are all God’s children. God is good at everything and each of us express God in our own way. God broke the mold if you will after each of us were created.
May 20, 2012 at 1:13 pm
A few more that I’m tired of hearing…
“I’m a Christian and…” followed by some self-righteous statement or authoritative/condemning message/commandment from Jesus or Jehovah. May also take the form of “The Lord told me….”
“The Bible says…” followed by the speaker’s paraphrase of a bible passage that may or may not exist and may or may not fit the topic at hand and often includes some prohibition/condemnation of behavior or thought. In a discussion about some important issue facing humankind that includes science, politics, religion, etc., “The Bible says…” means that the discussion is over because the bible trumps everything. It means that no further discussion is possible because god has spoken. It means that facts, data, and evidence are irrelevant and need not be examined in the face of biblical authority (or at least their interpretation of the bible).
“Jesus is the reason for the season,” meaning that xtians own the winter holiday and arrogantly forgetting or just plain ignorant of the fact that xtianity stamped its religion atop older pagan winter solstice rituals.
“All we can do is trust the Lord,” another variation of “It’s all in God’s plan,” in response to tragic/difficult situations as if this will fix everything and bring calm. Another variation is “Count it all joy,” quoting the bible verse in the epistle of James that tells xtians what to do when they encounter various trials. I heard a woman glibly say this to another woman who had miscarried.
“Have a blessed day.” Ugh! Groan! They should make the sign of the cross and sprinkle holy water on me as they say this. Mostly, I shake my head and say, “Thanks,” but when I’ve had a shitty day, I just want to tell them, “No thanks!” or “Please take your ‘blessed day’ put it up your ass.”
May 20, 2012 at 1:14 pm
Point number 2 about God’s will made me pause and think. I come from a tradition that teaches that God has a very clear and specific plan for everyone – in every area. I havent always lived that way; I have always believed that choices that honor God are all that He desires, and your point seemed to be just that.
May 20, 2012 at 1:41 pm
I am utterly suspicious of people who claim to be Christians aka followers of Christ and DON’T know God’s will. It is spelled out in the Bible! The 10 commandments (Exodus 20), go to all the nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). How to raise children (Proverbs). The Bible is God’s will, All scripture is God breathed and is used for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good deed (2 Timothy 3:16).
May 20, 2012 at 1:43 pm
We don’t agree, Katy. I’m sorry, but I don’t think you’re correct on this. We’re not going to agree. Thanks for sharing, though.
May 24, 2012 at 9:28 am
I have read many of your replies to posts here, tho not all, it seems that in a great majority you continue to violate the 2nd commandment. It seems a consistency in your replies that you are creating a God of your own design..you feel that God would not do this or such in such..I feel you are quite “off target” in doing this. The beauty of hermeneutics is finding the unchangeable truths of God that transcend time and are applicable at all times and events in life. God is very black and white as to what is right or wrong..it seemas as if there is MUCH grey areas in your theology..
May 24, 2012 at 9:52 am
Hey Melodie, I assure you I’m not trying to make a God of my own design…this God looks nothing like what I think should happen in the world.
I don’t trust anyone who doesn’t have grey in their theology.
May 20, 2012 at 2:22 pm
Why does the inerrant, infallible Word of God contain conflicting ethics and morals?
A woman, caught in the act of adultery, is brought before Jesus (as a test) so He may determine her fate. Well, the Law is clear and unambiguous. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law and yet He abolishes it.
Cognitive dissonance is fine, unless you’re looking for absolute answers.
How do you get absolute truth?
1) Translate the Bible so every human on the planet understands it *exactly* the same way
or
2) have to have someone interpret for you (their feelings)
or
3) interpret yourself (your own feelings)
If the answer is 2 or 3, then we find ourselves squarely in the middle of a subjectivity, which cannot be the case if the Bible is absolute truth.
May 20, 2012 at 2:57 pm
True, there is an relationship between a person and his actions. However, it is totally anti-biblical to declare that we must look what is essentially a part of a person’s life. Jesus loves us all, but not our actions/sins. Jesus loved the immoral woman of John 8….In His love he told her to “go and sin no more”. This is just one of many examples…However, a thousand Biblical proofs will not convince a person who agrees with this article.
May 20, 2012 at 2:58 pm
I meant to say, “However, it is totally anti-biblical to declare that we must love what is essentially a part of a person’s life.”
May 20, 2012 at 3:47 pm
Interesting perspective. Number 5, “That’s not very Christian…” should never be said mainly because many of us have no clue what constitutes “being Christian.” I mean, I know what being a Christian means to ME, but determining what it means to you doesn’t concern me– that’s between you and God. As for the other four, every single one is doctrinally correct… but you’re right, we probably shouldn’t say them out loud.
I especially disagree, however, with your assessment of differentiating between the sin and the sinner. It is certainly possible to love a person and yet disapprove of their behavior. We’re told to be “wise as serpents and gentle as lambs” when reaching the lost world for Christ. The Bible is clear about right and wrong, and it’s the Holy Spirit’s job to convict of sin and lead each in a right path. But Christians are not instructed to accept and tolerate continual unrepentant sinful behavior in others. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Paul reminds us that sinners will not inherit the kingdom of God. The list includes thieves, drunkards, and (sorry) homosexual offenders. When we’re washed in the Blood of Christ and sanctified to His service, we’re to leave those behaviors behind. We’re not doing anybody any favors by accepting and tolerating sin in the name of Christian love.
May 20, 2012 at 4:32 pm
This was a great post. I agree with most of it. I am both a Christian and a scientist and readily admit that I struggle with parsing the sexuality debate. I am fully heterosexual but have several gay friends and attend a church that welcomes homosexuals. My struggle is that the Bible indicates in more than one place that the “act” of homosexual intercourse is less than desirable by God. Nature confirms this design as the primary purpose for the organs themselves, and their use, is reproduction; which can only happen with heterosexual intercourse. How, then, can we remain consistent with scripture if we condone the act as “ok”? It is logically inconsistent to say I believe this book…just not that part. I do believe the topic receives way too much press and has become more of a divisive issue in the church than anything else. I also believe that a homosexual disposition is far more an issue of psychological response to one’s environment than a physiological disposition. There are too many logical errors with the theory; even from an evolutionary perspective (I.e. lack of reproductive mechanism to sustain the trait, etc.). Always interested in hearing opposing logic though.
May 20, 2012 at 4:36 pm
Hey Brett,
I would offer that Paul didn’t know about orientation. Had he, I think he would have written differently on the subject. Thanks for being open and honest with you’re commenting!
May 20, 2012 at 4:37 pm
I totally believe God is responsible for our pain. Is. 45:7
Just sayin’
May 20, 2012 at 4:39 pm
I think one verse doesn’t show and/or prove anything. Lots of historical-critical baggage there. Thanks for commenting and reading, though. Diverse opinions are welcome. Just sayin
May 20, 2012 at 9:42 pm
We can totally go there. I’m an MA in OT and ANE at the Hebrew University. Will it make a difference we have the historical critical conversation?
May 20, 2012 at 9:44 pm
Hey Aaron, no. I respect your seeking a degree. I have one as well. Many, in fact. I don’t think we’re going to agree on this. I probably have as much in my arsenal as you do….and I don’t have any desire for that. Thanks for posting.
May 20, 2012 at 9:48 pm
That’s cool, though I have to wonder what the point of bringing up historical critical issues if they don’t actually make a difference.
May 20, 2012 at 9:52 pm
I do think they mean a difference. What you site is poetry and prophecy, but it’s directed toward a specific people for a specific purpose…and is historically conditioned.
In short: I don’t think that you’re going to say anything that I haven’t already considered, and I’m not interested in having a fight so that you can show your degree chops. I’m sorry; that’s the honest truth. Thanks for commenting and reading.
May 20, 2012 at 9:55 pm
In that case, I’d love to hear your understanding of the verse, since you’ve considered a range of possible meanings in context already.
May 20, 2012 at 9:57 pm
Hey Aaron, thanks. Not interested. I appreciate your continued effort here, but I don’t play those games.
May 20, 2012 at 10:03 pm
I don’t really think of biblical interpretation as a game, but I’ll leave you alone about it. Good night, and no hard feelings.
May 20, 2012 at 10:04 pm
Thanks, Aaron. A sign of respectability. And I think that often times these “site and interpret” things do turn into games…whether they should or not, that is a good question. I just fear we’ll go back and forth to no avail, and I’m not interested in that. Thank you.
May 20, 2012 at 5:14 pm
Good thoughts. I especially like the last one about God’s plan. However I think you missed an opportunity to explain why bad things happen.
Then the third phrase is a taken out of context. While I agree that some Christians do segregate themselves, I think the real point of this phrase is that we do need a support group that will encourage us when things get tough. And it definitely will in the mission field if any ministry. The key is to be out in the field to feed but the group will feed you. Barnaby’s and Timothy analogy.
May 20, 2012 at 6:48 pm
What a precious way to put the truth of things. A very easy to understand clarification of the perils of being raised in the bible belt!
May 20, 2012 at 7:54 pm
Terrific! Honest and funny, too. Thank you.
May 20, 2012 at 7:56 pm
My daughter posted the link to your blog. Glad she did, because you touched on some of the things I’ve noticed over the years as well. I’ll tell you of two.
After my mother died after a painful, prolonged cancer, someone I considered a friend told me it was part of God’s plan to make me a stronger person. My mouth literally dropped open. That anyone could make such a statement stunned me. I asked her, “Are you telling me that God deliberately made my mother suffer and die young because I am so special that he wants to make me strong?” I do not recall what she replied now, but it was a cruel and insensitive thing to say to someone in deep pain and grief. I pitied her for her lack of insight. We had no common language with which to discuss grief.
The second: a neighbor of mine for many years was a deeply religious woman who attended an African-American Christian church. We often spent a morning having coffee and chatting. One day she said to me, “You know, you are a good Christian.” Then, remembering that I am Buddhist, she put her hand to her mouth, embarrassed, and began to apologize. I stopped her apology, and told her I considered what she said a compliment, and thanked her for it. Buddhism is a way of life that is very like the actual teachings of Christ, and I felt the honesty of her comment not as insult, but as honor.
Thank you for your astute and gentle observations. Your buddha-nature is flowering. ;-}
May 26, 2012 at 3:03 pm
Dayle, your second example made me smile. Thank you for your commitment to developing buddha-nature in yourself
May 20, 2012 at 7:57 pm
I love this! Sounds like the things I think and say and write. My daughter, Biff Wilson, shared this on my FB timeline. I’m so glad she did. An old Navy buddy who became my brother-in-law for a few years recently de-friended me on FB because my daughter was too “openly” Gay and I was too accepting in my posts. He used that phrase about hating the sin! I was a pastor, also, and I still minister – but not in a church.
May 20, 2012 at 8:00 pm
What about ‘it’s not Christian how Treyvon Martin was treated’ or ‘it’s not Christian to put people on death row because that’s killing?’
May 20, 2012 at 9:11 pm
Yeah, I would call that into question, too. We need to stop using Christian as an adjective.
May 20, 2012 at 8:17 pm
So the list of things Christians shouldn’t say, and the first one you mention is “That’s not Christian…”
Can I be the only one to point out that you’re essentially saying “That’s not Christian to say “That’s not Christian…”"
May 20, 2012 at 9:11 pm
You can if you want, but I’m not saying that.
May 20, 2012 at 9:57 pm
Wonderful, thought provoking thread. But I need to share two things… first, most people don’t actually take our Lord’s name in vain…that is, they don’t make a vow or oath to God and then break it. I’m sure there are plenty who make “promises” to God with no intentions of keeping them, but the majority don’t say things such as “I will kill you, so help me God”. I won’t go into it any further, just know and understand what it actuallymeans to take the Lord’s name in vain. Second, everything that happens in your life is part of God’s plan. As humans, we make choices, sinfully (because we think we know best), that make our lives digress from God’s original plan for us. If we were to follow God’s plan unquestionably, it would be far different from the one that we actually live. To question or doubt God’s plan, is to question or doubt the magnificance and glory of God. Who are we to question or doubt God’s wonder. If you question the plan, are you not questioning the planner? Thank you, and God bless.
May 20, 2012 at 9:59 pm
Hi Katherine, I don’t agree with your second premise. I’m sorry, can’t accept it. What you say as simple fact I don’t consider fact. And I think God can take my questioning. Thank you for commenting and sharing your thoughts, though.
May 26, 2012 at 3:07 pm
What’s wrong with questioning the planner? Does God keep secrets? Didn’t Paul Tillich say that doubt was integral to faith?
May 26, 2012 at 4:33 pm
Yes, Andy. An excellent point! And I’m a Tillich-o-phile as it is…
May 20, 2012 at 10:35 pm
Just for the record, there are still Christians who do not use profanity, obscenity or sissy-cussing. They believe that if they love and respect God and others, they can control those impulses and in time decrease the temptations. Words enter the brains of others and change them, possibly forever, so if we love one another, how could we give ourselves permission to impose vulgar speech on those around us? Expressing anger increases anger. The fruit of the spirit brings …self-control.
May 21, 2012 at 9:19 am
Thanks for commenting, Ellen. I don’t think Paul had cursing in mind when he wrote that, but thanks for the perspective. I do continue to be absolutely stunned at how many people have commented on the cursing section of this blog. I hope people will be just as appalled when people use these other phrases as they would if someone said dammit.
May 21, 2012 at 6:46 pm
Ellen – That’s the beauty of following Christ. We are all different in our understanding and interpretation of what matters to God.
May 20, 2012 at 11:12 pm
Fabulous list. I agree with everything you’ve stated Pastor Tim. I will admit that I do believe God guides me through life but, like you, I cannot accept that its in his plan to kill my friends babies or rape innocent children. If this is in Gods plan than count me out…God is gracious and good. Not conniving and untrustworthy. And that is why I love this post and will share it with all. I feel so blessed to have you as a pastor…
May 20, 2012 at 11:49 pm
Couple of points. On hate the sin topic. Your argument that you cant love the sinner without loving his sin is off-base imho. You say you can’t love someone without loving the essential part of them. So you love serial killers murdering? They would argue they can’t help it and its essential to who they are. I AM NOT equating the two. You can love the person. The person created in God’s image, who Christ loves unconditionally. We can love people unconditionally but that doesn’t mean we love the life of sin they’ve chosen. All have sinned and fallen short…So I’m not excluding myself from that. I have homosexual friends and we discuss these issues. I don’t approve of their lifestyle but I approve of them and their friendship.Christ separated his feelings for us and our sin and we can too(hopefully).
Second I agree with your view on Gods plan. He never planned for us to suffer. But all things work for good for those who love the Lord and seek his face. As sad as it is for us dying is not a negative for the Christian.
“For the unsaved this world is the best they’ll ever have, for the Christian it is the worst we’ll ever have it”. Not very comforting for someone who has lost a love one but true none-the-less. (Rambles a bit sorry!)
Good discussion. God Bless you Brother.
May 21, 2012 at 11:51 am
Wow, great post…I have a tuff time w/christianity! Saying that you are a christian doesn’t make you a christian…hence what we say and do, action speaks louder than words. I believe to be a good christian or even better just a good person, is to have good morals. If we have good morals then the list would be a mute point. But then we have to take in the human factor…God did not create us all equal and we need to be more understanding and less judgemental…God included. I guess we think that because he gave us this perfect and beautiful planet to live on that he is perfetct…I don’t think that he is….I don’t think we are (if we were, why are we destroying it?) another topic. He has his faults and trust me I have issues with him. I wish more poeple would talk about their issues with God (leave out the Bible) with out feeling like they are going to hell if you say something out of line.
I just go back to the fact that we are not all created equal, but I do wish he was kinder. I fight with myself to be a good moral person…I think too many people abuse the word saying that they are Christians. Now before you send me hate mail…think of our politicians. WE really have lost the meaning! Love thy neighbor is one that comes to mind.
May 21, 2012 at 12:07 pm
Oh Yeah, one other thing…I say cuss words as well, but only when needed, still a work in progress using less often (mostly because I have no one to talk to!)
May 21, 2012 at 1:57 pm
Well this is an interesting conversation going on here. I’ve just reread James 3. A person that can control his tongue is mature. That’s not to say that a person who cusses is not a Cristian. That’s just ridiculous. The point isn’t to cuss or not to cuss. It definitely isn’t to pass judgement on those who do, either. Rather it is for each of us to know what’s appropriate at certain times and in certain company, and to be sensible and looking out not only for our own interests, but the interests of others. With everything that is in us, living at peace with God and man.
As for what to say or not say to suffering people, the Bible does say to weep with those who weep and rejoice with those who rejoice. It also says to comfort one another with the comfort whereby you have been comforted. Some well meaning Christians think they have to offer a theological explanation for everything. Not so. Be loving and sensitive. Sometimes that is just being there, silently. Or holding someone’s hand, or even saying…I don’t understand this either, but I’m here for you.
May 21, 2012 at 2:13 pm
“You need to surround yourself with some good Christian people…” I see nothing wrong with this. Some people do need to do this. Especially if they want to break away from harmful things that they practiced. There are different seasons for different parts of one’s life. A recovering addict doesn’t want to hang around with the same friends because he will be tempted to do drugs. Leave that company to the Christians who don’t struggle with addiction to minister to. Bad company corrupts morals. That’s just true. We are in the world but not of it doesn’t mean we avoid the world, nor does it mean we avoid Christian company so as to not to look like pharisees. Plus, some people have walked with God for longer than others. Why shouldn’t the new believer immerse herself in the company of like believers? Do what God calls you to do. Leave the rest to him. Peter, seeing him, said to Jesus, “But Lord, what shall this man do?” Jesus replied, “…what is that to you? You follow me.” John 21:
May 23, 2012 at 9:47 pm
I don’t believe the post is saying “don’t hang out with Christians” It’s more of an understanding that hanging out with Christians isn’t the answer. The post isn’t about do’s and don’ts it’s about what is helpful to say and what we can believe to be helpful that can instead be very harmful or damaging. I don’t believe he saying hanging out with christians is bad, but its not a fix. It’s like saying “just pray about it” Praying can be helpful but it’s not going to magically make the situation better. We need to be willing to delve into the life of others and give true loving compassion. Not a quick phrase and continue to whistle on our merry way feeling as though we’ve done Gods work.
May 21, 2012 at 3:20 pm
Reblogged this on ThePseudoMe and commented:
This writer and seem to have the same views on the matter. Except that I could not have phrased it any better, hense the reblog.
May 22, 2012 at 7:31 am
Thanks, Pseudome! Many blessings.
May 21, 2012 at 3:50 pm
This was an very interesting post. As a Christian who recently had my mind blown by The Shack, I’m surprised no one has commented on this part of your post:
“I’m even more suspicious of people who claim that God’s greatest wish is to have us be in a relationship with God. I think this is where much “praise and worship” music get it’s singular focus.
In the abstract, I get what they’re saying. I think God does desire for humanity to live in shalom with it’s creator. But to claim that this will takes precedence over God’s desire to have humanity live in shalom with one another, and with the environment, and with other creation is, I think, short-sighted.”
Really? You don’t think our relationship with our Creator takes precedence over all our other relationships? He designed us to seek Him first. When we are Christ-like, by spending time with Him, our other relationships will benefit. I have no formal education in theology, but I sort of assumed we all agreed this was our primary goal: Relationship with Him.
May 21, 2012 at 4:27 pm
Thank you for #1!! That phrase drives more hurting, suffering people OUT of churches and AWAY from God than any other I can imagine.
My husband died a few years ago, at the age of 39, leaving behind myself and 4 kids who were still a bit traumatized from dealing with the 5 yrs of illness prior to his death. The idea that “nothing will ever happen to you outside of God’s perfect will” almost drove me away from God. How could this level of suffering be the will of a good God? Have you ever heard a 10 yr old girl wail when you tell her that her daddy has died? It’s torture, pure and simple, and if that was God’s will, that level of pain for my child, then don’t expect me to worship the one you say caused it.
Personally, I think that phrase is most often used by people who like to pretend that everything in life will always make sense and that we have one iota of control. It is said not so much to comfort the hearer of that phrase as the speaker. They like to believe that, though their good and gracious God clearly willed this type of tragedy for someone else, God would never will it for them. It makes them feel safe.
But consider this: if someone came into your house and killed your husband or wife, because it was their will to do so, how anxious would you be to love, serve, honor, and worship that person? How do you expect those of us who have endured tragedy to feel any differently? If it’s God’s will for us to endure such a thing, well then, he’s not such a good God, is he? And if it was his will for us to endure this, then I don’t want anything to do with that kind of God.
Fortunately, I stopped drinking the koolaid. I understand God differently. I understand that he comforts us in all our sorrows, not that he causes us all our sorrows. I understand that we live in a fallen world and bad things really do happen to good people. I also understand that when we weep, God weeps. His heart breaks for us. He is not sitting in his lofty heights, pleased that his will has been done and produced pain; he is with us, beside us, in us, grieving the affects of a world gone wrong and the pain that it brings to his children.
FYI: I stopped going to church in part because people would not stop saying this phrase to me and my children. I didn’t want my kids exposed to such lies about God. Sad when you have to stop going to church so your kids will stop being lied to. If you like to use this phrase to comfort those that have endured tragedy understand that the one time you say that phrase to them may be the last time they can endure it and you may never see them darken the doors of your church again. Now, is THAT the will of God too?
May 21, 2012 at 7:47 pm
I no longer consider myself religious, and the jury is still out on my belief in Christianity or God as a whole. A lot of different things have factored into this change in my life and beliefs. Just wanted to say that I appreciate the article and I thought everything was stated perfectly. I liked all of the points but the one that really hit me was about God’s plan. I lost my father unexpectedly almost 7 years ago, he was 46. Every time somebody would come up to me and try to explain that it was God’s plan I would fill up with anger. The other thing they would say was that he was in a better place, the best place is here with me and the rest of his family. Too many times I would feel like people wanted to console me with something “deep” or “religious” when all I needed from them was a sympathetic ear and for them to “stand in solidarity with (me) and scream, “Dammit!””. When I encounter people going through the pain of a lost loved one I draw from my own experience, shrug my shoulders, tell them “that sucks, I’m sorry”, and give them a hug. There is nothing else you can do, especially when you have no idea what is going on in that person’s head and heart. I’m sure many people thought they could say God’s plan or in a better place, I was attending church weekly, my father was a leader of our local church, I looked and acted the part, it just goes to show you that you can’t assume you can spout something to somebody and have it mean what you want it to mean. I feel like I should say that I hold no grudges against anybody that said those things to me, I know they were just trying to help but the feeling of anger couldn’t be helped.
While I know that losing my father and the emotions and thoughts that came with that contributed greatly to the reasons I am no longer religious, I also can say that those were not the only deciding factors and all of the other items on this list factored in as well. Beyond all that, it just didn’t feel like who I was anymore and I knew that I had to be honest with myself.
May 21, 2012 at 9:32 pm
guilty fellow Xtian here. my lips had uttered those … well except no.5, i guess. if not verbatim then in ways and speeches which when translated— be these 5 phrases (apparently, in English language!) …. just had to run through no.1 again just so i could comprehend …coz honestly, it’s cliche to me, and i’d been telling the words all the time …. hope you could elaborate more on that … your nice words will surely help. thanks. <3
May 22, 2012 at 7:30 am
Hi Emayey,
I’m actually planning to follow up on a couple of these in subsequent posts because it appears it’s touched a nerve with folks. Thanks for your comments and your words. Let’s all be careful with our words.
May 23, 2012 at 12:13 am
i believe so sir … can’t wait for your follow up posts. <3
May 21, 2012 at 9:39 pm
[...] Timothy Brown at Reluctant Xtian posted 5 phrases Christians (everyone, eh-hem) should remove from the category of acceptably utterable. It is a good [...]
May 21, 2012 at 9:43 pm
thank you.
http://deliberatedonkey.wordpress.com/2012/05/21/the-reason-of-reasons/
May 22, 2012 at 12:32 am
“Every time somebody would come up to me and try to explain that it was God’s plan I would fill up with anger.”
I lost my dad, too, a few years back. He died slowly as cancer took his life. At the time, I was an atheist and I would’ve reacted the same way as you to such comments, but given that my dad’s final witness during his last days as well as God’s obvious and sovereign hand at work, I know that at least one little part of God’s plan in taking my father was to bring me to His saving grace.
“The other thing they would say was that he was in a better place, the best place is here with me and the rest of his family.”
Isn’t that a tad selfish/self-centered? You’re not thinking about your dad or God, but yourself. I miss my dad and I would’ve liked to have had him here with his family, but he’s in the presence of the One who created him and gave him new life. He’s free of the pain and suffering of this world (even when he was healthy) and knows nothing but joy, peace and love right now. Being here with his family is definitely NOT better than that.
May 22, 2012 at 12:21 pm
And yet, why do people fight to stay alive? Even if there is a negative moral duty to not commit suicide, it does not mean there is a positive moral duty to prolong one’s life.
Would not the appropriate reaction to a heart attack be to crawl into a corner to die quietly, instead of dialing 9-1-1? Or if one is diagnosed with cancer, why spend tens of thousands of dollars on medical treatment, instead of spending it on entertainment until it is time to meet God and go to Heaven? After all, did not Jesus say whoever loses his life for His sake will find it? Did not the Quran teach that martyrs go to Heaven?
May 22, 2012 at 8:01 am
Is there even one quote of Scripture, reference to Scripture, or even allusion to Scripture in the article? Maybe I missed it…the entrance of God’s word gives light. Gospel blessings…
May 22, 2012 at 8:04 am
Hey Keith, the article wasn’t meant to be a proof-texting treatise. Suffice to say there are plenty of Biblical citations for and against many of the comments made in the body of the text and in the comments. It’s amazing how Luther’s comment, “All Scripture has a wax nose” is proved true in such arguments. We can twist it any way we want…and so often do.
May 22, 2012 at 11:23 am
A good read. Quite thought provoking. Thanks for sharing. I am not a christian but these thoughts come to all minds.
May 22, 2012 at 11:39 am
Great insight. I might not curse with you, but I will follow your blog. Of course, if I do curse in the near future, I will now be able to blame it on you. so there’s that.
May 22, 2012 at 1:48 pm
There is that…thanks for following!
May 22, 2012 at 3:29 pm
When I had a miscarriage, one of the books I read (through tears) about grieving for this “invisible” loss had a list of 10 “helpful” things people were likely to say. I remember these:
It’s part of God’s plan.
It probably would have been deformed anyway.
Don;t worry, you’ll have more children.
Well at least you already have one child.
Sure enough, at church that Sunday, one woman managed to blurt out FOUR such comments in a row, before I could even respond.
I was glad I had been prepared, or it would have surely floored me. As it was, I looked at her in love, and knew she was struggling – and trying. I accepted her love, if not her words.
The woman at my office who left an Easter basket from Fannie May’s on my desk, made me feel so supported, that 15 years later, I still have that cardboard bunny in my Easter box.
I received much good love from many people at my church, that day and countless other days. I especially found healing in their hugs and wordless sighs.
May 22, 2012 at 4:21 pm
In Life Together, Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote (and quite masterfully, I think): “Often we combat our evil thoughts most effectively if we absolutely refuse to allow them to be expressed in words…. it must be a decisive rule of every Christian fellowship that each individual is prohibited from saying much that occurs to him[/her].”
Cheers, Tim!
May 22, 2012 at 4:23 pm
Ha, love it, Nate. Thanks!
May 22, 2012 at 8:38 pm
Instead of cursing, I choose to rest in the knowledge that God is in control of all things. I choose instead to follow biblically-based teachings like the following instead of the tripe of someone trying to justify his potty mouth.
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/where-is-god
May 22, 2012 at 9:13 pm
Thanks for commenting, Jinx. Just to be clear: don’t think there’s anything to justify about cursing. Sorry you feel that way, and sorry you’re responding so negatively.
I don’t endorse the link Jinx has put up.
Thanks for reading.
May 22, 2012 at 9:01 pm
“I choose instead to follow biblically-based teachings like the following instead of the tripe … ”
Isn’t that special? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX8jo8wIIaU&feature=related
May 22, 2012 at 11:48 pm
Love this episode! I swear Dana Carvey was out church secretary when I was little…
May 22, 2012 at 10:34 pm
i’m pagan, i’ll say that right now. My dear friend that posted this is christian. After having read this pastors post i have to say i agree with him immensely and i have to say that he wrote this very well. i’m a pagan minister and a lot of the folks i talk to and help out give many of these reason as to why they dislike Christianity. To have a christian pastor actually take the time to address these very issues and to openly write about them give me hope that someday our two faiths will be able to be friends with each other and no more of us being “burned at the stake” as this guy so eloquently stated.
May 22, 2012 at 11:19 pm
Many blessings, Bear. Thank you for your words!
May 22, 2012 at 10:58 pm
Reblogged this on 2012 ~ Into the Deep and commented:
This was too good not to re-post! I completely agree with the sentiments of this Pastor!
May 23, 2012 at 6:53 am
This definitely got me thinking about your points…in fact I have been guilty of saying a few…yikes!lol. I am inspired to write on a similar topic now…thanks. But just one question…God hates sin but His love for us does not change…so technically can point 4 be validated? looking forward to your response…..
May 23, 2012 at 8:14 am
Hey fay, I really want to call that phrase into question because I think it’s used poorly. As I point out, its often used for people to try to make themselves feel better (even righteous?) while holding judgment over someone else. I also think that in a contemporary setting, it’s almost exclusively used to apply to people with sexual orientations other than heterosexual, and I don’t think that you can love people outside of their orientation.
I’m really not sure why everyone wants to hang on to this phrase. It’s so empty.
Thanks for commenting and reading!
May 23, 2012 at 7:11 am
[...] pastor friend, posted a blog last week, which was reposted by an atheist/agnostic blog and a Christian blog. The atheists [...]
May 23, 2012 at 7:54 am
I do not agree with this. There are some things the bible does not compromise on.
May 23, 2012 at 8:09 am
Thanks for commenting, askia. It’s OK to disagree.
May 23, 2012 at 9:13 am
I had a fantastic pastor named Dennis Ellingson, in Volga, South Dakota, who preached everything you are saying here. Though I last saw him nearly twenty years ago, he most undoubtedly shaped my idea of what faith is, and how Christianity can be a light in the world, vs. a lot of judgmental nay saying. I also hold him as one of the wisest, kindest people I’ve ever met, of any walk of life.
The best was the day he started our confirmation class by running off, loudly, while writing them on the chalk board, every four-letter word he could think of. He stopped, after he finished, with all of us somewhere between giggles and mouths agape, turned around, and said, “You see? God didn’t strike me down.” He went on to tell us that there’s a time and place for words like that, and the only “curse word” is to pretend you know what god wants by using his name, to justify actions that are cruel, to justify war, to justify judging any other human being for what they do.
I chose to not consider myself a “Christian” many years ago in favour of embracing a more animistic philosophy (and that’s another story), but Pastor Ellingson, for that teaching, and many others, has always been a warm inspiration to me in my daily life.
May 23, 2012 at 1:41 pm
I just have to say that I went way out of my norm by reading this, and I am so happy that I did. I was raised in a strict southern Baptist world, and as soon as I was mature enough to decide for myself what I believed, I did not return to the church. I have to say that the author of this blog is a christian that I would feel comfortable breaking bread with.
I do not attend church, I support gay relationships, I have told a lie or two in my life, but I feel like God is ok with that, and with who I am. I help others when they need, I am a good mother and wife, and I do my very best to avoid hurting other beings in any way. But, some Christians believe that because I choose to live my life outside of the church and Bible (which I see as more of collection of inspiring stories than “how to guide” for getting into heaven), or organized religion for that matter, that there is no hope for me.
I feel like this pastor is a person of acceptance, verses tolerance, and that is comforting to someone who has the belief system that I do.
May 23, 2012 at 2:02 pm
Thanks, Jennifer, for your comments. And I would offer that churches, and organized religion, need people like you in them, too
May 23, 2012 at 2:23 pm
Cannot even tell you how much I adore this!
THANK YOU so, so much…so challenging when these phrases come from family…who in my heart of hearts I believe are well-intentioned and don’t MEAN to be nasty…but you know how it sounds….
The one I REALLY despise? “God doesn’t give you more than you can handle.”
Our home was devastated by Hurricane Irene last August (we will move back in next month!) and at this very moment, I’m sitting alongside my husband who’s receiving top-notch treatment for Stage 4 cancer. God didn’t “give” us those challenges by a long shot! I don’t believe for a red hot minute that He’s “testing” us. But there is not one sought in my mind that God is inhabiting those ministering to us, those caring for our twins while we’re in the hospital these weeks, those praying for us and keeping us in good humor.
Damn straight. (I’m a Christian and I curse, too.)
Blessings to you…this is what I needed today.
May 23, 2012 at 6:42 pm
Thanks for sharing your story, Chery!
May 23, 2012 at 2:24 pm
Wow. Lots o’ comments. My personal philosophy: never trust a pastor who doesn’t occasionally curse. They’re either phony or too perfect for the likes of me…
May 23, 2012 at 6:54 pm
Ha! Nice. Thanks, Matthew…
May 23, 2012 at 2:53 pm
Reblogged this on Keshiamfowler's Blog.
May 23, 2012 at 3:21 pm
I agree with the writer on #1… It isn’t God who causes bad things to happen. John 10:10 says…The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
God is the good guy the devil is the bad guy! Why do tragedies happen? 1. The devil is out to kill God’s creation 2. We live in a fallen world where there are earthquakes, tornadoes, etc and sometimes we fail to listen to and/or obey God’s voice which might be warning us not to go somewhere or stay away from something. 3. We fail to use our faith to speak to our Infirmities, sickness or we simply don’t believe that God still heals today and that miracles still exist.
The easy/lazy thing for so many people to do is to just blame it on God and say it is all in his perfect will “Whatever will be will be…” No friends! That is not the way it should be! As children of God we have Prayer and prayer changes things! Love you all!
May 23, 2012 at 6:36 pm
Reblogged this on This Imperfect Christian.
May 23, 2012 at 6:53 pm
On a wholly different note, I want to thank you for being candid with your opinions and your views. I don’t know a lot of ministers (in any faith) who feel as comfortable as you must to share such a human side of themselves. I grew up with priests who felt they had to protect the facade of being “closer” to God than I, and it was devastating to my faith journey, as I felt more judged than supported. Water under the bridge.
I will say that I have questioned many of the same points as you’ve outlined, and have wondered, aloud and to no great use, what God would think of how we’re treating each other. While I have concluded that He’s far more concerned with loving each other than He is with who’s being “Christian enough”, I also know that the only judgment I can make is about how any current cultural influences affect me – and only me. Well, and my kids, but that’s more about dialog and context than anything.
We will all answer to God, and I’m far more taken up with how I’ll answer for squandering what He gave me to care for than I am about what other people are or are not doing.
Final thought, my current pastor admitted one time that he went to a non-Christian therapist so he could, indeed, swear if he felt the urge. That admission was both amusing and comforting. Thanks for the great post!
May 23, 2012 at 6:57 pm
Thanks for sharing your story, Lisa! I hope that more and more pastors can feel free to be candid. I think Jesus was pretty candid with those around him, and we don’t do our parishioners any good when we’re not upfront.
May 23, 2012 at 7:30 pm
Wow! I would list everything in this article I disagree with, but I don’t have that much time and based on the responses in the comments it sounds like the author has his mind made up and is too sure of himself to listen to anyone who might disagree with his precious points. This is but another example of why this Christian doesn’t go to church. I shudder to think of the people that this man “shepherds” – of course there’s probably not a lot of shepherding going on since he eschews a request for reasonable responsbility on the basis that he “might need to go to the coffee house.” (You know the sort of thing that other people with jobs still manage to find time to do.) I am disgusted that a “pastor” would take such well-meaning phrases by well-meaning people and twist them into something ugly. Because, obviously, that’s all people are really doing – cloaking their horrible, evil intentions in Christian nicieties – they can’t possibly be genuine, caring people. At least the author doesn’t have to be worried about God spitting him out of His mouth for being lukewarm. He’s far too cold-hearted to ever be mistaken for being lukewarm.
May 23, 2012 at 7:34 pm
Wow soapie, sorry to offend. I’m happy to field other opinions. I think it’s sad you have to think I’m cold hearted, and I fully admit people say these things because they’re trying to be nice. I just don’t think they’re helpful, and that’s why I wrote it. But, I fully reserve the right to be wrong. That’s why this Christian does go to church.
Thanks for reading.
May 23, 2012 at 8:31 pm
How about instead of telling us what you think we’re doing that’s so unhelpful tell us what you’d rather we say instead? If your point was to be “helpful” by telling us what not to say, why not take the extra step and tell us what you think we should be saying?
(And, for the record I do assume that I know God’s will for my life because I don’t think He wants me to sit around twiddling my thumbs just marking days until I die. I think He desires that we ask Him to show us His will because He wants us to know. Otherwise, what’s the point?)
May 23, 2012 at 8:42 pm
Uhm, I did write what I think you should say.
May 23, 2012 at 8:48 pm
I’ll also say that your tone is pretty tense. Please tone it down if you comment again. Thanks.
May 23, 2012 at 9:08 pm
I re-read the article and have to confess that I simply don’t see where you stated what you prefer to hear instead. The only thing I saw suggested was at the end of the piece when you said we are to stand with our friend and say “Damn it!”
I won’t apologize for my tone but I won’t respond again since you are taking the “author gets to say, do and feel however they want” road but if it provokes a response in my heart that you don’t like you have the right to request I “tone it down.” It’s bad enough when the world attacks Christians, I refused to sit quietly while you did.
May 23, 2012 at 9:17 pm
It’s in my next blog.
And while I don’t think I’m attacking Christians, I’m sorry you feel as I am. I guess I’m attacking myself, then.
I can request you tone it down, I don’t think that’s unreasonable. It is unreasonable, though, for you to say that my suggesting people think carefully about their words/phrases is an attack.
In general, I think people often feel guilty when they’re shown some things that others think are offensive, things that they might themselves say/do. I really want to stress: I don’t want anyone to feel guilty. I’ve said these phrases in my life.
But as a pastor, and a Christian, I’m calling them into question. If that doesn’t sit well with you, feel free not to read. But don’t feel free to accuse and be harsh. We can disagree; that’s OK. It’s not OK to be hostile.
May 24, 2012 at 12:24 am
Shoulda been in this blog, Tim.
May 24, 2012 at 7:01 am
Thanks, AMR. That wasn’t the point of this post. I offered some things I think Christians should say more often in the next post. I’m OK with the way this one is.
Plus, I think we can all come up with more helpful phrases than the above without me having to give them.
We must think.
May 23, 2012 at 7:57 pm
You made some very good points and the fact that it has upset some folks, just reaffirms the point. It is interesting how the calm xtians can turn into a pack of wolves so very quickly. I enjoy a good debate however, true debates are few and far between because the xtian usually (not always) resorts to name-calling and verbal attacks instead of discussing (or debating) the facts.
I applaud you for questioning everything. If more people did just that, the world would be a better (and more mature) place.
Let the games begin……..
A~N
May 23, 2012 at 9:45 pm
I’ve noticed that our culture seems to reward name-calling these days as a replacement for sound argument. I’ve been seeing it in almost every arena, particularly politics. No one seems immune on any side. So unfortunate that xtians are being persuaded to act this way too. And they get noticed for it, because our faith tells us to do the opposite. Such a shame. All I can say is, enjoy the show.
May 24, 2012 at 6:55 am
Ha. Thanks, Nicole.
May 23, 2012 at 9:25 pm
I agree that we Christians are so many times “swallowing camels while straining out gnats.” We need to concentrate on what Christ actually said matters– loving God and loving people! If what we’re doing isn’t truly helpful to that end, then it’s useless and might be hurtful, and could possibly be destructive in ways we don’t even realize. He said that if we aren’t attached to the vine (Him), we wither. And that the world would be inspired by our love for each other. Not by our clean language. While I would have to clarify w/ you some of the minor points you made, Tim, before I could fully agree, I completely concur w/ the main point. We need to get back to what truly matters! And quit handing out platitudes and picking on each other!
May 23, 2012 at 9:56 pm
Reblogged this on My Site and commented:
WORD.
May 24, 2012 at 9:50 am
Reblogged this on Quandary and commented:
Had to laugh when i saw this. Have actually encountered some people saying some of these very things, can definitely relate. Great post!
May 24, 2012 at 3:36 pm
Thanks, Claire! Many blessings.
May 24, 2012 at 10:02 am
helpful post.
May 24, 2012 at 4:19 pm
bloody right!
May 24, 2012 at 6:14 pm
I agree, Christians shouldn’t say these 5 phrases because they aren’t biblical concepts. Nowhere in the Bible do we get , ‘Jesus loves the sinner but hates the sin’. Additionally, we should not curse because it is sin, as indicated in Ephesians 5.
We need to love God and love people, but it isn’t loving to God to ignore his truth and his word.
Unfortunately I’m sure you get lots of ‘hit and runs’ from more conservative Christians, but I assure you, this isn’t one.
If you’d like to discuss this further, check out my site or toss an email.
May 24, 2012 at 6:20 pm
don’t consider this a “hit and run”. I’ll repeat that I don’t think the writer from Ephesians was talking about swear words, and I assure you I’m not trying to ignore truth or Scripture.
Thank you for posting!
May 24, 2012 at 6:36 pm
I think it’s generous to leave you with that conclusion, but I will. I think the main point necessary here is that as a Christian, I am called to love other human beings, regardless. There aren’t ways which I should ‘hate’ them. Their sin offends God and brings His judgement, but that is God’s role and not mine.
That being said, for a given sin – foolishness, sexual sin (straight sexual sin, or homosexuality), lying, lusting (over people or things) brings the just wrath of God against them, and it is loving to gently tell people of this and beg them to repent of it. And that is something that ought to be welcome in the church.
May 24, 2012 at 6:57 pm
A good thought to entertain, and one that I do: can God give mercy without repentance? And if so, does God?
And if so, perhaps the formula(s) that we try to concoct around God and God’s actions aren’t as cut and dry. And in fact we might be missing the point of living a life with God if we focus so much on such “right/wrong” binaries.
May 24, 2012 at 6:59 pm
In the spirit of generosity, I’ll end with that as well.
May 25, 2012 at 4:14 pm
Mercy from Hell without repentance? No. Other mercies like breath, sunshine, food, other graces? Yes. Of course, I would never have the audacity to make these claims based on my own wisdom if God’s Word didn’t say these things… By nature God is above us, yet has graciously revealed His will.
Things are ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ if God has deemed them so. Swearing isn’t abundantly clear, and therefore I’m willing to leave it aside, however the other ones I’ve mentioned are abundantly clear.
Just so I can understand you better… are you a Universalist?
May 25, 2012 at 5:52 pm
No, not a Universalist. I read your post on Universalism. It was poor scholarship and not well informed.
LP, I realize you think you have “it” all figured out. I don’t agree with you. It’s clear we’re coming from different places and won’t agree. Thanks for reading, thanks for commenting, but we’re not going to agree on this.
May 25, 2012 at 6:07 pm
What you consider to be “the end of the book” is actually a book in and of itself. Revelation is a book that stands alone as a metaphorical interpretation of 1st into 2nd Rome, it is not an “end of all times” book. I point you toward Barbara Rossings “The Rapture Exposed” for an explanation of what I’m talking about.
You basically proof-text Universalism. A question: did you talk to Universalist to see what they think/believe?
See, this is the problem. So many people think they have others figured out. In that post you mention Paul’s conversion as moving from “legalism” to…?
What? What you are professing is legalism to the highest degree. Can you not be reformed, too?
A call of the question is what I’m intending with this post. Let’s think about what we say. If we can’t think about what we say, if we think we have it all figured out with platitudes and ridiculous cliches, then we miss the whole point of this journey called “life.”
We’re not going to agree on this. I do thank you for reading and posting.
May 25, 2012 at 6:27 pm
I know people who are Universalists. My writing is not scholarly, it is more exegetical in nature. I’m admitedly not the best writer, but trying to improve.
I can assure you I don’t have everything figured out, and I don’t mean to come across proud. I have much more to learn. But certainty gleaned from the clarity of Scripture is not pride. I realize we don’t agree, and I don’t expect reading a blog will change this. But our disagreements do not stem from the wisdom of our respective arguments – they stem from an acceptance/rejection of Scripture. When this is the case, there is nothing more I can (or should) do.
I’m no master of eschatology, and so if the Revelation text is misinterpreted in your view, John 3:36 is sufficient.
Don’t want to fill up your comment section about a topic that isn’t directly related – if you’d like to discuss further, our email is laodeciapress@gmail.com.
Paul
May 25, 2012 at 6:28 pm
Paul, I appreciate your candor. Thank you.
May 24, 2012 at 7:31 pm
I am not a Christian myself, but I think what the pastor is saying here is wonderfully tolerant and well written. I think it’s advice that can be used for just about anyone, regardless of their religion. Bravo
May 24, 2012 at 10:27 pm
I would also add, “God never gives you more than you can handle.” This is not only just plain Biblically untrue (with the exception of temptation), but not at all comforting!
As a mother who has sat by her daughter’s hospital bed many times being SUSTAINED by a God who walks with me through WAY more than I can handle, I can tell you that one of the best things anyone ever said to me was the F word. I called my brother (who had just graduated from seminary at the time) to tell him that I was taking my daughter to the ER (again). His reply? “F*CK!” You are exactly right. It was the absolutely appropriate response.
Thanks for a great post!
May 25, 2012 at 8:07 am
That’s a great point Becky. I’ve probably said that myself. And yet, God wants us to turn to him when we can’t handle “it”. Every day we are to put “it” in his hands.
May 24, 2012 at 11:13 pm
I don’t agree with you 100%, but I certainly agree with the basis of your message, that God is love, and by loving God, you must, by definition, love all people. I also take issue with these phrases that are over-used time and again by Christians very thoughtlessly, who, while they think they’re doing good by saying them, are really turning people away from God. That’s the way I read it, anyway, forgive me if I misrepresent you.
I have apologized to non-christians for the behavior of Christians before, and I will continue to live my life loving others to the best of my ability since I’m just trying to do the Jesus thing, rather than “be a good Christian”. Thanks for your message, even if I agree to disagree with you on a few points that I’d rather not get into.
On a side-note about the swearing: I understand that some people find the need to do so occasionally, and I think whether or not it’s sin is personal and depends on whether God has convicted you on that particular issue or not. But what gets under my skin is when someone swears around my children. If you swear yourself, fine. I don’t really care. But if you swear in front of my children to where I have to explain those words (that I myself don’t use) to them and pray they don’t pick up on them and start using them, that’s not ok with me, especially if you consider yourself a Christian. I think it’s easy for people who are in the habit of swearing to consider swear words as normal vocabulary words, not realizing that there are still people who take offense to them and/or don’t want to open that can of worms just yet for young ears. It may be a case of 1 Cor. 8:9-13, where exercising a freedom such as swearing may become a stumbling block for the weak (or young). I wish more people who feel free to swear would consider not doing so around kids. I want my kids to stay innocent as long as possible; they grow up so fast anyway. Just a perspective from a Mommy here.
May 25, 2012 at 7:57 am
Thanks for your comments, Shelley. I do want to make clear: I don’t swear a lot, and I don’t think people should swear a lot. And I think we always, no matter what we’re saying (curses or not) be aware of who is around…hence the reason for this post in the first place. So, we’re in agreement.
Thanks for reading!
May 26, 2012 at 12:02 pm
Pastor Tim: I have just spend a good chunk of my morning reading many of the posts prompted by your blog. The conversation you have inspired is quite amazing. Although there are clearly divergent ideas and theologies behind many of the posts, the conversation seems civil and may be productive. I was really interested in the exchanges about God’s will and his active role in what happens in our lives. Like several of your posters, I believe that when God gave us free will, he left the door open for many things to happen in this world, some of them great and some of them unthinkably horrible. It is up to us to seek his guidance (his will) for our response to such events. Even the discussion about cursing fits with that plan for our lives. Each time I find myself crossing that line, I also find myself wondering what my creator would think of that. Of course, we often speak first and think second, so we just tend to learn and hopefully try to adapt our actions in the future.
May 26, 2012 at 2:36 pm
Hi Pete, thanks for reading and posting. Luther’s work “Bondage of the Will” actually had quite an impact on me and my thoughts on “free will.” While I won’t go into all of that now, I do think that there are plenty of actions, both beautiful and horrible, that happen in the world. And I do hold that we should seek God’s will in both beauty and horror. What I question is this idea that God’s will is ultimately knowable, and I really want to question people who suggest that they are certain of God’s will. Fear and trembling are the two (Kierkegaardian) responses I have toward naming anything about God or God’s will.
As far as cursing goes, I think that sometimes cursing is all really can do. I think many people who replied to this post are thinking of specific words that people use in their language to express dissatisfaction. I’m not talking about that (although I do use those words at times because, well, it happens). My heart isn’t troubled over such things; focusing on that is not the point of this life.
My actual point, at the beginning of the post, was that there are sometimes when all you can say is “Oh God…” because that is literally all that can be done. I don’t think that’s speaking first and thinking second; I think that’s honest.
We must be careful when we begin to suggest that God is rewarding and punishing; that God is “causing weal and making woe” (to quote scripture). Philosophically and logically we have to make all sorts of concessions and God either looks impotent or cruel. I want to point people toward a third way, a way of the cross, that shows God standing in weakness with those who have bound wills…
May 26, 2012 at 3:46 pm
With the God referred to by some of the commenters, who needs the devil?
May 27, 2012 at 7:13 am
I would add another phrase that drives me crazy: “I, as Christian etc.”. First of all who says that implies that he/she is while I am not a Christian; besides what if I was Jew or Muslim? Am I less of a human because of this? Secondly they made an assertion on what is right or wrong from a Christian point of view. Problem with that is that usually it is HIS/HER point of view, not God’s or Christ’s; did they personally discuss the issue with Him? Lastly, it’s a very judgemental; something that does not sound really Christian.
May 27, 2012 at 7:51 am
This post is going viral on Facebook, methinks. So is the other post, 5 Phrases I Think Christians Should Say.
May 27, 2012 at 1:15 pm
While I agree with virtually all of your ideas and positions, I offer two caveats. First, it took me a while to realize that when you were opposing those who say God’s greatest desire is for us to be in relationship with him that you also meant “to the exclusion of other relationships.” Just a note on writing, friend. Otherwise, I agree. I think the world is a vast web of relationships that, if taken as a whole, helps one to “see” God. Secondly, however, I would urge caution in how you express these ideas. I say this because of the “meat sacrificed to idols.” I understand that everything is permissible, but that not everything is beneficial. As the “stronger brother” (a term that I don’t really care for), isn’t it our responsibility not to curse if it causes division? At least amongst those whom it would offend? I realize this sounds like a situational morality and a proposition of hypocrisy, but isn’t it also being all things to all men and simple social awareness and consciousness? Is it not also our place to help those who say these things with a good heart to grow in their empathic ability and to understand just how hurtful and damaging the subtext of their comments are? In my opinion, most Christians need more than just “rules” about things not to do, such as “don’t say these 5 things or things like them,” but rather, they need to be taught to be more considerate and to really listen to and learn about the people around them. I hope you understand where I’m coming from here.
May 27, 2012 at 1:45 pm
Hi Peter, I do understand what you’re saying and thanks for sharing your thoughts. This post wasn’t meant to offer alternative ways of saying these things; it was meant to bring light to the fact that saying them at all isn’t helpful.
As for cursing and causing division, I actually think these phrases cause much more division than cursing.
Thanks for commenting!
May 27, 2012 at 7:54 pm
All of these are reasons why I don’t go to church to commune with ‘good Christians’.
May 27, 2012 at 10:03 pm
Hey Manda, don’t give up on folks. There are places that welcome good questions! Thanks for commenting and sharing your story.
May 28, 2012 at 10:32 am
[...] Pastor Tim Brown wrote an article “Five Phrases I Think Christians Shouldn’t Say” about how he despises the use of the word “Christian” as an adjective (e.g. “That’s not [...]
May 29, 2012 at 10:09 am
Excellent! I didn’t read all the comments so maybe someone else mentioned it – but I would add one more phrase, “the Bible clearly says…”
Very little in life is clear – especially multi-layered scripture. I happen to enjoy the complexity, mystery, and wonder found within.
May 29, 2012 at 11:15 am
Agreed, Eric! Thanks for commenting.
June 2, 2012 at 8:38 am
One of the most insightful articles I have read.
June 27, 2012 at 11:33 pm
this post, or blog, has resonated with me in a way i’ve not felt in a long time. i feel the urge to go to church for the first time in forever. if only you were in LA and not chicago! i will be following your blog with pleasure from now on. thank you.
June 28, 2012 at 6:41 am
Hey Holly, Thanks so much! There are places of faith asking good questions! Don’t give up the search. Blessings in LA. I have many friends who live there (although, it seems most of them are ending up in Long Beach for some reason).
Peace
June 28, 2012 at 5:49 pm
if you happen to have any recommendations for anywhere to start, i’d love to know. so far i haven’t been happy with the places i’ve tried (although there haven’t been that many to be honest)
June 28, 2012 at 12:46 pm
I’m not a Christian; I’m a Witch who enjoyed this more than I can say. I’m surrounded by great people, an eclectic mix that broadens my perspective rather than narrows it. What you’ve said here applies not only to Christians but to anyone referring to their faith. Thus, I have to say my first thoughts after reading it:
Hell yes! *applause*
I hope my small curse is taken in the appreciative, and grateful spirit in which it was first thought.
June 28, 2012 at 12:49 pm
Yes, of course Marie. Thank you for reading, and thanks for commenting!
August 15, 2012 at 7:17 pm
[...] take the name of the Lord your God in vain,” has little to do with cursing (although, from a previous post you’d think that that’s all it [...]
September 16, 2012 at 8:06 pm
this was just a superb read. Very very interesting thoughts here. And honesty. I’m one of the weirdest xtians one would meet.
My hair is blue. I make surrealist art and laugh a lot (yes. Alot of so-called christians don’t know how to laugh and be as joyful as they should). Heck. I can be a big cynic but i know how to smile and not tell everyone theyre going to hell.
The bible says we have ALL fallen short of the glory of God.
Judge not lest ye be judged….why don’t people get that? They push people away from God when they judge.
“hey! You can’t have piercings! That’s unholy!”
really? Why are you wearing earrings? Isnt that huge hat you wear “ornamentation”? “vanity”, too?
Psh. These are just people who feed on self-righteousness. Which is very unChrist-like. Pharisees, basically.
September 30, 2012 at 3:16 pm
Reblogged this on queerconfessions and commented:
I mean, I have to whole-heartedly agree with all of this.
October 1, 2012 at 12:19 am
Do you have any idea how like rain in a drought you are??? When you feel as though you’re the only person in the world who thinks like this….. Lovin ya from the bottom of the world
October 1, 2012 at 9:24 am
Thanks, Louise. Many blessings for you, too!
October 11, 2012 at 1:08 pm
I’d like to leave a more profound comment than, “OMG,” but those 3 letters pretty much cover it for me. In a very good way.
October 11, 2012 at 5:09 pm
Blessings, Linda. Thanks for reading and commenting!
October 11, 2012 at 5:02 pm
For what it’s worth, this blog entry has helped this skeptic take one step closer to accepting faith and people of faith. There has always been a barrier once I find out someone is Christian (or Catholic, more precisely) and they, likewise, find out that I am not. The tension shifts and it gets uncomfortable. The part that you mentioned about pain, about how “We cannot use God to fill in the gaps between events and the people they effect. … But we should not think that this means that God makes the world’s pain, or the specific pain in a person’s life. It’s an important distinction.” <3
October 11, 2012 at 5:10 pm
Thanks, Meg! I hope and pray that dig deeply there!
October 11, 2012 at 8:30 pm
Love this. At my house, curse words aren’t the F Word, or such. I don’t want my kids saying those words. But if I hear them say “shut up”, “retard” or “faggot” I am going to be PISSED. My kids know they had better not use judgement words.
November 10, 2012 at 7:58 pm
This is pitiful. God DOES have a plan for all of us. It may include death, pain, and suffering. But its just a part of life! I’m really disappointed at the outcome of this article.
November 10, 2012 at 9:21 pm
Hi Mia,
Thanks for reading and commenting, and sorry you’re disappointed. You and I agree on one thing: life does include a myriad of things like pain, suffering, and of course, death. But I’m not willing to say that God gave, or even that God “allows” you to have cancer, or your sister to die, or…fill in the tragic blank.
It’s clear we don’t agree on that. Thanks for reading!
November 11, 2012 at 7:28 am
Well God didn’t allow pain and suffering to be a part of life. He doesn’t even want it in our life; He is filled with His own pain and grief when we have to suffer. There’s a really cool illustration I heard about why suffering happens to all of us. Imagine on the floor there were about a hundred paper clips scattered. They are all touching. Each of the paper clips represents our life. We have our friends that we connect to (represented by the touching paper clips). Well God can see all those paper clips and He can see the future and what will happen next. Say He sees a horrible car accident (planned by Satan, of course) where a whole family dies. So He moves one of those paper clips (in which a family of paper clips are touching) to a different position. It may end up not touching the paper clips it was touching previously. Then when the car accident comes in real life, only one person is killed. You may not think this is fair, but really all we can say is that its all Satan’s fault.
If your wife got pregnant, then lost the baby, you wouldn’t understand why the sinless, perfect child had to die for no reason. The baby didn’t deserve to die, right? But God can see into the future. He could see that maybe one day, this perfect child would grow up to be a serial killer. We can’t see into the future and we can’t understand why bad things happen to us. My whole post may sound a little cliched but this is how I see it. I know you don’t like it when I say “Its all part of God’s plan” so I’ll change it. Sin is all a part of Satan’s plan, and God is doing what He can to prevent sin because He loves us.
January 12, 2013 at 9:47 am
I can agree with you on some thoughts. But overall it seems like the church you were in didn’t teach people to have a personal knowledge of God (or people dont learn it themselves). No middle person can be between God and you. It’s wrong to think you can come to God through a church, pastor or a friend. That’s one of the reasons why many people lose faith.
January 12, 2013 at 10:00 am
Thanks for the thoughts, Yar. I have issues with organized religion, but I’ve never been able to grow spiritually without it. Without other people around God just ends up looking like me.
February 1, 2013 at 12:47 pm
[...] Xtian: 5 Phrases I Think Christians Should Stop Saying. Again, I don’t agree with everything here, but decide for yourself. “It’s all in [...]
March 10, 2013 at 8:37 am
[...] Read full article at Reluctant Xtian [...]
March 15, 2013 at 4:43 pm
I completely agree with everything you just said. There are Christians out there who give the rest of us such a bad name; and the ironic thing is that while they’re saying these things, they really aren’t loving their neighbours.
This is why I practice in my home – that and the whole gay thing, but let’s not go into that.
May 6, 2013 at 2:57 pm
Thank you – just saw this post today. I read some of the comments but ran out of time. I wish people would think about the implications of what they say – “God healed me because I prayed” Oh – so I prayed and my FIL still dies, does that mean God loves us less? No, of course it doesn’t. But that statement does imply that the “healed’s” faith is somehow superior to mine. Also, to tell me that it’s “God’s Will” that I be infertile is incredibly hurtful. Really, it’s his will that I, who would love and cherish a child not be able to have one, but someone who doesn’t want one or who is ultimately going to abuse that child can have one? Exactly how is that a loving God? There’s a big difference in knowledge of what will happen and causing it to happen. If everything that happens on this planet is his will, then why is there hell? If every single thing that happens on this planet is God’s will, then why would a murderer go to hell? I mean after all, he was just following God’s plan, because every single thing that happens is God’s plan. The fact that we are able to sin means that we are able to choose not to do God’s will, and to not follow his plan. That alone means that there are things that happen that were not His will, not His choice, not His original plan. Look at Adam and Eve, it wasn’t God’s plan for them to be driven from the garden. It was His plan for them to commune together. They made a choice that violated His will and His plan. Thanks for sharing these thoughts. I agreed with all of them!